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Intro: Hi, I'm John Iino and welcome to the Reed Smith podcast Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions, and challenges, past and present, all with a goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included.

Iveliz: Hi, I'm Iveliz Crespo, global diversity and inclusion advisor at Reed Smith, and I'm today's guest host of Inclusivity Included. I'm joined by Jane Burton, chair of the Lawyers with Disability Division of the Law Society. That's the representative body for solicitors in England and Wales. We're also joined by two of my colleagues at Reed Smith, Danielle Liebl and Kevin Hara. Danielle is an associate who focuses on transactional matters, and Kevin is an associate in our life sciences and health industries group. For today's podcast, we'll be discussing some best practices for ensuring that law firms and organizations can adopt to ensure that they're inclusive of people with disabilities. More than ever, companies are being forced to develop a diverse workforce. However, disability is often a forgotten minority in that group. One in five people will acquire a disability in their lifetime, and individuals with disabilities are major source of untapped talent due to social stigma that they can't or don't want to work. As someone who has to navigate the world with an invisible disability, I find this topic to be incredibly important. It's one thing for team leadership to say that they want to be more inclusive and another successfully put that vision into practice. I'm honored to be joined here today with Jane, Danielle, and Kevin, all of whom have unique lived experiences, professional experiences that they're going to be sharing today. So Jane, why don't you start by telling us a little bit about yourself and if there are any best practice tips that you can share with leaders to ensure that they're able to enhance feelings of inclusions for people with disabilities in their workspaces.

Jane: Hi. Well, I'm the chair of Lawyers with Disabilities Division of the Law Society of England and Wales, and I'm the leader of a group of about a thousand people who belong to the Lawyers with Disabilities, and we have a committee and we represent lawyers with disabilities trying to promote them for better working practices within the profession. Recently we had a survey done by Cardiff Business School. They came to us and wanted to make a study of the legal profession and how accessible it was for people with disabilities. We got a lot of very interesting findings from that. We already knew that there were great barriers for people with disabilities within the legal profession in England and Wales from what people came to us with their stories and their problems. So this gave us some concrete research that we could use to go to employers to lead your organization's firms and say to them, look, this is the reality for disabled people in the profession. What are you going to do about it? The report came out in January, the president of the Law Society in the UK and the England and Wales held a dinner for major law firms, and this was all starting to get off really well when the coronavirus lockdown came along. So we're now in the process of carrying out some round tables. We've done one, we're going to do another three virtually, and we're going to try and promote remote working now for when we come out of this coronavirus lockdown situation. And people have gone from overnight from not wanting their employees to work remotely, to everyone having to work remotely more or less. So we're saying, look, this was a problem in the past for people. How about now? You've got to reconsider this amongst other things.

Iveliz: Absolutely. Thank you, Jane. In terms of, I hear that you're saying flexible work arrangements are incredibly important. Are there any other steps that companies can take to ensure that they're creating a culture that's inclusive?

Jane:

Well, we'd like employers to think about recruitment to start with because what we found were only 8%, that's eight. Not 80% of disabled legal professionals found the recruitment process agreeable to them. So already you can't even get through the doors in firms. And one of the things that we're asking people to do is to create their own work experience program just and sets aside some places for disabled students and also to have a recruitment process that sets aside at least a couple of places for disabled trainees. Because in the UK you pass your exams, then you need to do two year traineeship. Now this is something that Reed Smith already do in the uk, in their London office. So really, Reed Smith are a trailblazer in in the uk, and they have actually won a lot of diversity awards with, because this sets you aside, this sets Reed Smith aside as a firm that's really looking at inclusive employment. We also would like people to do reverse mentoring so that a leader in a firm sort of shadows a disabled junior employee to learn what it is, what are the barriers that they face. This has also been very helpful. We've seen this happen, and we also need to see leadership in firms, people to disclose that they have a disability if they have them, and for promotion prospects to be opened up to disabled employees and lawyers.

Iveliz: Absolutely. I mean, I think the same can be said for here in the us. Danielle and Kevin, do you folks have any steps that you'd like to share in terms of what businesses can do to make job opportunities more accessible? Are there certain US organizations that law firms or regular organizations and businesses can partner with to help recruit more people with disabilities?

Danielle: Yeah, so one thing that I've experienced during my one L internship in law school after my first year was I interned at Microsoft and they had a program similar to what Jane was talking about, what they said. One intern spot for a law student who identifies as having a disability and they go through and they mentor you, they pair you up with other lawyers with disabilities. So if you have any questions or concerns, but as far as workflow, you're immersed with all the other interns. It's very inclusive, which is actually how I ended up up at Reed Smith is because they said, hey, Reed Smith is an inclusive firm, so I would highly recommend businesses and law firms mirroring that program that Microsoft does as a law school student, which was three, four years ago. Now, the recruitment process is somewhat frustrating because all the diversity and inclusion spots usually go to those who are racially or ethnically diverse and not, they don't really include people with disabilities.

Iveliz: Absolutely. I was looking at doing, I did some research on disability and employment and job recruitment, and according to the disability equality index, only 44% of companies make all job interview candidates aware that they're allowed to request an accommodation for an interview, which to me is really bizarre. If we're trying to be inclusive and we're trying to recruit folks, we want to make sure that we're leveling that playing field and providing the opportunities for folks to be able to even step into the room or dial in virtually. And so Kevin, do you have any input on how organizations can work together to make these job opportunities accessible?

Kevin: Well, that's a good question, and following on what Danielle said, I believe Reed Smith has done a good job of making the whole interview process more accessible for persons with disability by doing just what you were talking about, which is allowing accommodations during the interview process. Our recruitment forms now specifically state that if you need any accommodations for your interview, please let the firm know and you'll receive them. And I think that's one big step in the right direction. Certainly there is more work to be done and working with organizations such as Microsoft has helped us learn a lot. We also have worked with Accenture who is a very disability smart organization, and in addition, we do trainings on a yearly basis on disability etiquette and awareness with the national organization on disability. And those have been instrumental, I think, in separating Reed Smith from other large law firms. That's not to say that we can sit back and say, oh, we've done this. We still recognize there's much more to do. But I think we're always open to suggestions and best practices. And in particular, Carolyn Pepper and Jonathan Radcliffe, Luke and some of the other members, and Danielle, Danielle has been great at getting LEADRS name out and pairing with other organizations.

Iveliz: Yeah, absolutely. And for those that are listening that may not understand LEADRS is the name of our disability employee resource group, which has been instrumental and does a lot of programming and awareness raising, which gets really to the heart of the next issue. We want to recruit folks, we want to bring people in, but we also want to make sure that we're creating a work environment and a culture where they're going to be accepted, and that takes a lot of work. Jane, I know that done work with organizations in the past regarding creating inclusive cultures, and I know that you mentioned representation and leadership, right is key. So having those people in those leadership positions that feel comfortable enough to openly disclose, right, so that other folks that are joining the organization can see themselves represented in that leadership team. Are there any other tips in addition to making sure that you have proper representation that goes towards creating a culture where people can thrive?

Jane: Well, having a disability network within an organization we found is very helpful. And at the recruitment process, having somebody that's dedicated to people, so if you have a disability and you require an adjustment, you can phone just one person at that firm is something that we recommend firms so that you don't have to ring up each time or speak to many different people about your disability. So you've got continuity so that it's not such a traumatic experience because sometimes disclosing your disability is not easy. And this is why we're finding that a lot of people do not want to disclose. If they can do, if they have an invisible disability, they will more than often not disclose that disability. If you have a visible disability, then you have no option. So to have somebody at a firm who's dedicated and understands the processes, we are hoping that firms will do training on unconscious bias because we feel that law firms and recruiters have a fear of the unknown in recruiting people with disabilities. And we want to make sure that what is done in law firms with a good practice is shared around. So the other firms have an equal number or a greater number of people working there with disabilities because we know there are a lot of very talented people out there. They've managed to successfully negotiate the education system. They've done work placements. All of these things with a disability are not easy. You're managing to do things on an everyday basis that involve problem solving and many different skills just to go out the front door can be a challenge. So we're trying to get people to recognize the qualities that disabled people have and the fact that there's a big gap, that they're very underrepresented or if they're in the firms, they're not declaring the disability. So we need to make the firms safe places for people to talk openly about their disability. And if we had leaders in firms that would declare openly that they have a disability, this would be a great thing. We're also working with a Lord from the house, Lord Quin. He's introducing a bill to be brought into new employment law where they will be pay reporting, so pay gap reporting. So each protected characteristic has to publish. A firm of over two 50 employees will publish its pay gap reporting so that firms will be named and shamed in this sense by this legislation.

Iveliz: That's interesting. And I think that transparency goes a long way. So having folks disclose how well they're doing in terms of making sure they're appropriately compensating all employees right, is incredible.

Jane: And what we do find, we have this misplaced paternalism. So people who require a disability during their working life, they might go back to work and the firm welcomes them back. They might go part-time, they do remote working, but they also can find that they're given work that is not at the same level that they were doing beforehand. So they're not able to pursue a partnership within a firm, and their line manager might think, oh, well, we will give them this work, it'll be easier for them. Whereas that's not necessarily something, probably not always. It's not something that they want to do. They want to be given challenging work like everybody else. And if you are given work that's less challenging and then you're going towards promotion, then it looks bad on your record or why have you only done this? And it's not necessarily the person's fault, it's the work that they've been allocated by a well-meaning, but line manager in that case.

Iveliz: Absolutely. It's important, right, that we are making intentional steps as organizations towards inclusion. Now, Danielle and Kevin, if you wouldn't mind, would you be able to share with us, speak to your work experiences either at Reed Smith or elsewhere where you've seen employers take intentional steps towards being inclusive? I know that Kevin, you mentioned LEADRS, our employee resource group being a great resource for folks, and you also mentioned some competency-based trainings. Do you find that there are other steps that the firm has taken to be inclusive or steps that you feel that previous places that you've worked could have taken to be more inclusive?

Kevin: Yes. That's a very good question. I think it cannot be overstated the importance of having business inclusion groups such as LEADRS for a variety of reasons. And one is simply being able to have a leadership position in an employee resource, or as we call them at Reed Smith Business Inclusion Group bigs having a leadership position really allows you to develop some skills that you would not otherwise have been able to do. It allows you to connect with other persons at the firm with whom you might not have interacted before and frankly may never have interacted, but for having the platform of LEADRS or another business inclusion group at Reed Smith. So that is a big part of it. Another aspect I believe is now that Reed Smith has really embraced diversity as a whole, but specifically they've taken some steps with regard to disability diversity, trying to make our website the content more accessible and working with companies who are attuned to the importance of disability diversity. A lot of employers now require, a lot of our clients now require us to disclose the amount of or number of individuals from diverse backgrounds during pitches and other business development efforts. And they demand that a high level of diversity on their teams and that transparency and Reed Smith's willingness to look for such organizations has gone a long way to allowing me to develop. And I can only speak to my experience at Reed Smith because I've been here since I started it years ago, and the firm has taken many steps to becoming more diversity oriented and more disability friendly. I've been allowed to work remotely for several years, primarily remotely, and sometimes I would go into the office, but largely on a remote basis. And that has allowed me to be much more productive. It allowed me to take advantage of the equipment I have at home that's more helps me to work at a higher level. And it's just things like that that seem like small accommodations really go a long way.

Iveliz: Yeah, absolutely. Danielle, any thoughts on organizations and how they can build competency around disability? One of the things that I think is really important is allyship. Do you have any thoughts on the roles that allies can play in terms of building competency and making their organizations more inclusive?

Danielle: To piggyback off of what Kevin was saying, the inclusion group within Reed Smith and other law firms are really crucial. They're not just open for only attorneys with disabilities. We have lawyers who have siblings or who are just in it to see their colleagues with disabilities thrive. And so having that group is also very powerful. Reed Smith, one thing that they recognize is during recruiting is that the candidate is also interviewing you. So I remember during my summer, I was looking at, is this a firm that I can thrive in and who's not going to look at my disability, but they say, oh, she's got the smarts and thrive. And one thing they did right away was put me in touch with Kevin and leaders. And from that I got a sense of we will do whatever we can to help you thrive and promote and make sure that your disability is not factor in your success at Reed Smith.

Iveliz: Absolutely, and you and Kevin both are shining examples of why inclusion is so important. You both are thriving and you make everyone at Reed Smith incredibly proud. So I just want to thank you both. Some of the things that you folks touched on each individually, you talked about the flexible work arrangements. So we've talked about how we can intentionally be intentional about our recruitment and make our recruitment accessible. So we're talking about bringing people through the door. We've also talked a little bit about how we can build up our culture to make sure that our culture is a place where people with disabilities even want to work and where they can thrive. And one of those steps that folks can take is being flexible in their work assignments and their work arrangements. And I know Jane and Kevin and you, Danielle, have all talked about this with me. So I'm going to circle back. Jane, if you wouldn't mind just elaborating a little bit on these flexible work arrangements. What does that look like in addition to remote work, which I think is incredibly on point right now, given that all these organizations have now shifted to somewhat seamlessly to remote work. Some of those same organizations have long denied these accommodations for people with disabilities. So it's going to be interesting to see how those organizations adapt in the future. So in addition to that, those kind of working arrangements, Jane, do you have any other thoughts in terms of what a flexible work arrangement looks like?

Jane: Well, a flexible working arrangement, they're very usually quite simple to do. I mean, somebody might need to come in to the office, but they don't want to travel in rush hour. So you simply make it so that they can come in slightly later than other people so that they miss the rush hour traffic. We we're now all working from home and they're talking about here in the uk the lockdowns stopping with people staggering their times to arrive at work. So again, another reasonable adjustment that we've been asking for a long time and which people do get here, or a taxi to work rather than having to take the underground. So these things are now becoming the norm, and we need to build on this once this crisis is over and make people look at those practices. I mean, a reasonable adjustment could be that you have clear glass doors in your firm and a visually impaired person might find that a problem because they're banging into them, put some stickers on the doors. It's that easy. Or your desk might be too high, too low. You can get an adjustable desk, you get a chair that will accommodate the person, or you need to put in some screens around a desk for somebody with neurodiversity issues so that they are shielded and from the noise. Reasonable adjustments are often really very simple to implement. And I think it's about also educating the people who, with non-disabled people in organizations to see these adjustments. Maybe that's something that will be easier once the whole coronavirus situation is over, that we can use the example of what has been happening now.

Iveliz: Absolutely. Jane, I think you hit the nail on the head, right? I think what I'm hearing you saying I think gives light to a lot of the hesitancy, right? People in leadership roles who are doing hiring and who are in these supervisory roles oftentimes are just not knowledgeable enough to have the wherewithal to ask about accommodations. So oftentimes they're ready to write somebody off as this person's going to require accommodations that are too difficult. When oftentimes these accommodations are simple, they're doable, and they act as equalizers, right?

Jane: That's it. I mean, you, I know, I think Reed Smith does this. I'm almost certain you do. You had a passport system for people with disabilities who worked there, and you wrote down the adjustments and the conditions so that it was easily accessible to different line managers, especially if you were training or moving from one department to another. And I think I'm writing saying that actually that was extended to all employees because it might be that different employees who are non-disabled could actually be helped by having an adjustment to their working life, which isn't too difficult to implement. So that's one key thing that we, in the legally disabled research report, that was one of the findings of the research that this passport system, which explains what you need, and it's transferable. So you might move department or your manager might leave, so there's a person coming in to replace them, doesn't have to go through this whole process of interrogating you about your disability or anybody else about their working practice. So you can see what each employee needs, disabled or non-disabled.

Iveliz: Absolutely. And that seems like a very simple thing, right? Communicating with the right people, making sure we have that transfer of information so we're not requiring people to disclose it over and over again. Now, Kevin, would you mind talking about flexible work arrangements? I think oftentimes when people think about remote work or telecommuting, they don't really understand why this is so important. If you wouldn't mind sharing your experiences with flexible work arrangements and why they're so important for folks with disabilities.

Kevin: Certainly. I think one of the ways that it may not be intuitive to everyone, but simply eliminating the commute. Well, it sounds like, well, that's not such a big deal, but eliminating the commute going from here in Berkeley where we live to San Francisco reduces the amount of time that I have to spend doing non-work, just spending time looking for the right elevator. Sometimes, for instance, I have a motorized wheelchair, a visible disability, so there's no requirement that I must disclose the disability, obviously, because apparent. But my point is, sometimes the elevators in the system that we use here, similar to the underground, it's called bart, it's a subway system, essentially, can be very difficult if there are elevators that are not working and I need to go to another station, or if a bus route that I use is not running things that people might not think of. But that's a big factor and allows me to be much more productive by not using those hours, worrying about traveling when I can dedicate them to just being able to focus on my work. And having a home office allows me also to take my medicine when I need it, or if I need to take a break and adjust my position in the chair, I can do that here with ease. There's a lot of extra space and just having small, as Jane mentioned, small and simple measures that might seem otherwise daunting if you don't know about them, really has made a difference. And just for instance, being able to get water when I need to get water can be a little more difficult at the office than here. These are, again, little adjustments that make for a big difference. I can really work a lot longer, be more productive and do so in a healthy manner where I maintain my physical and mental health,

Iveliz: And I echo that. I think it's written incredibly important for people to have an understand that these aren't major asks that people are asking. They're not asking for accommodations that would limit the quality of work, right? They're asking for accommodations that act as equalizers so that folks can do their jobs and do their jobs more effectively. Danielle, any thoughts on the flexible work arrangements?

Danielle: Yes, I think really awesome thing that this whole Covid situation is shedding light on is how we can include people who work remotely in the social life of the firm in that morale. I think it's really easy for employees who work from home to maybe be forgotten about and not really seen in the social life of the firm. Maybe that's a choice by them, but maybe it's just an outside of my thing. And I think this Covid situation is really shed a light on unique ways of how we can include those who work from home for various reasons in our social life of the firm, and how we can still include them with building morale and how we can provide accommodations in that way as well, and not just in the typical work sense.

Iveliz: That's an amazing point that you make there, right? Something that a lot of people don't consider when we thinking about accommodations for remote work, for work, we're thinking about the regular nine to five, while a lot of organizations, they have company parties and get togethers, that as much as people say those are just events that that really goes far in terms of professional development for people. That's how people network and build relationships. So thank you so much because I think it's incredibly important for us to remember that it goes beyond the nine to five. How can we make sure that we're making those networking events accessible, right? Whether those are done virtually or done during specific times so that folks are able to attend and get the benefits of networking and being part of that company culture. Any final thoughts, folks?

Jane: I think about the networking. That's a very important point because in the legal profession, it's often used in a criteria to assess for promotion, how much networking has this person done, and it can be very difficult for disabled people who can't attend functions. So I think when you are assessing promotion criteria, you have to also make an adjustment to that too. So I think it's a great point that Danielle made about not being excluded from the whole working environment because you can't necessarily go in every day, or you can have a flexible approach where you can go in some days, but not others. But also that you look at the lack of networking for a person, perhaps they're hearing impaired and the networking situation just would be very difficult for them to do, but they bring in other assets to their work, and I think it's looking at what the person can do and focusing on that and focusing on the positive aspects of a person, thinking outside the box, putting people first.

Iveliz: That's amazing, Jane. So I want to thank you all for joining us and for the audience, we hope that these tips help business leaders open their minds and their workplaces so that more companies can reap the benefits that others have by hiring, retaining, and advancing people with disabilities.

Jane: Thank you very much for having me.

Danielle: Thank you.

Kevin: Thank you.

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producer is Ali McCardell. This podcast is available on Apple Podcast, Google Play, Spotify, Stitcher, PodBean, reedsmith.com.

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome.

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