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Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast, Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions, and challenges, past and present, all with a goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included. 

Kendra: Hello, I am Kendra Perkins Norwood, a government contracts partner at Reed Smith LLP based in Washington, D.C., and I am elated to welcome you to this very special episode of the Inclusivity Included podcast. So this is a special series of Inclusivity Included, and it's dedicated to an organization that is very near and dear to my heart called the Leadership Institute for Women of Color Attorneys, otherwise known as LIWOCA. So Reed Smith was very gracious in agreeing to host and sponsor this LIWOCA series of Inclusivity Included. And as a Reed Smith partner and a member of the LIWOCA Board of Trustees, I could not be more proud to be a part of bringing this podcast to life. So thank you very much to Reed Smith for their generous support. Now, many of you may be wondering exactly what is LIWOCA. So it is an organization whose mission is to help women of color attorneys in law firms and corporate legal departments, develop skills to become leaders in the legal profession. LIWOCA is also dedicated to assisting law firms and corporations with retaining and promoting women of color attorneys. And last but not least, the organization is dedicated to fueling the pipeline of women of color attorneys through law school scholarships. Today, for our inaugural episode, we are so fortunate to have as our guests LIWOCA’s founder, Marian Cover Dockery, as well as a longtime LIWOCA member, Philippa Ellis. So I would like to welcome you both to the podcast. We're so excited to have you here, and I will just turn the mic over to you for you two to get started. 

Philippa: Thank you, Kendra. It is quite an honor to have this time with you, Marian, as CEO of Leadership Institute for Women of Color Attorneys. And I am excited to talk to you about your role with starting Leadership Institute for Women of Color Attorneys. I'll call it LIWOCA. You know, LIWOCA has awarded over $300,000 in scholarships to deserving law students, hosted 20 national networking conferences for women of color attorneys from across the nation. And the organization has provided a platform for not only professional networking, but also professional development and mentorship connections. So as we're approaching a big number, 20th anniversary, coming up on the April 23rd through 24th conference in 2025, Marian, take us back to the moment in time when you initially had the idea to launch LIWOCA. 

Marian: Thank you. And I just want to say before I launch into that, I want to thank Reed Smith on behalf of LIWOCA for underwriting this and Kendra Norwood, partner at Reed Smith, and Rachel Patterson of ORC who facilitated this podcast. Let me go back to the American Bar Association conference in Chicago, which was 20 years ago, the Commission on Women in the Profession were holding a session, and the session focused on a report, a riveting report called Visible Invisibility. That report chronicled the and detailed the sexual harassment, sexual discrimination, racial discrimination, and disrespect that women of color all across the nation were experiencing in law firms. So after that report was read, a colleague of mine, Julia Doolin, and I went back to Atlanta and decided that we could do something about this. So my idea was to have an annual conference, bringing all of these talented women into one space and giving them support through sessions, panel discussions, also just keynote speakers who could impart their knowledge and advice regarding becoming successful in law firms. We had to figure out, first of all, how we were going to put this on because we had to have money. So luckily, I had two contacts who were CEOs. One who I'd worked with on the Pace Academy board, the CEO of Rooms to Go, and another who was the CEO of Darden Restaurants, who I'd met through one of my good friends. He was her brother-in-law. And I just sent both of them emails and told them what trying to do. And both sent big checks. And after that, we were on our way because posting those two companies as sponsors. All the Atlanta firms and other firms and companies followed. To put the program together, I just called friends and associates and really calls her friends and associates to work or serve on panels and to serve as keynote speakers. We had two keynote speakers that year. Chief Justice Leah Sears, who was the first African American to serve on the Georgia Supreme Court, and the youngest woman ever to serve on a state Supreme Court, and Judge Glenda Hatchett, the TV personality who was the former juvenile court judge. And we had a Fulton County. And we just had two great speakers. Glenda auctioned off one of her shoes, which launched an auction that we have an auction even today. But it's not her shoe. It's a quilt. We auction off quilts every year that O.V. Brantley, the former Fulton County attorney and DeKalb County attorney, donates to us every year. And that's how we got started. And we did that for two years, we were the Leadership Academy, and then we reincorporated as the Leadership Institute with a planning committee because it was too much work for a couple of people. And so here we are today. 

Philippa: And 20 years later, Marian, you know, thinking about what you mentioned about Justice Sears being a first, you yourself have, you know, a checklist of firsts. You were the first woman and first diverse attorney in the legal department at FedEx. You were also the first African-American woman to serve in an executive management position at BP Oil. And those are just a couple of roles you held during your journey to serving as CEO of LIWOCA and at the same time you have an active labor and employment discrimination and wage and hour claims practice. You've practiced for 40 years and just looking at your trajectory and your journey in the legal profession, have you been able or do you feel you've been able to impart that type of support and meet your goals for the organization, as you mentioned, with a goal of supporting diverse women lawyers? 

Marian: Absolutely. One of my goals for the annual conference was to bring experienced senior attorneys into a room with attorneys starting out who could impart their knowledge, their expertise, how to navigate racism and sexual harassment in the workplace without derailing your career. I've wanted more experienced attorneys to interface with the younger attorneys to give them informal mentoring. And we've done that. We've done that through just informally, but also we had some what we call speed mentoring sessions throughout the years. But more importantly, I don't think of it as a conference. I thought of it as an experience. It was so uplifting having all these wonderful, accomplished women in one room who were excited to see each other because so many of these women, as I was, are the only ones in their firm, maybe in their law firm, but maybe not in their section if they were in big law. Many women were unhappy with big law, and the study showed, Invisible Invisibility, showed that women of color were leaving the legal profession because they were so disillusioned and so disappointed and unhappy. But one of the goals was to present to them alternatives to working in big law. You could go to a smaller or mid-sized firm and be happier. You could go perhaps in-house or work in the government or work in nonprofits, but don't give up the practice of law because the social implications for that were just huge. And we put so many resources, money and time into going through law school and passing the bar and our hopes and dreams to give up the practice of law just because of bad experience at one firm was just something we didn't want people to consider. 

Philippa: You know, Marian, you also, and just kind of thinking about all of the mentorship relationships that have been sparked from the LIWOCA conferences and all of the connections, you know, the legacy of LIWOCA is one of support. Sisterhood, professional sisterhood, and, you know, also the scholarships that have been provided to law students. Can you talk a little bit about how you decided to provide that support for law students, aspiring lawyers? 

Marian: We decided to provide scholarships for lawless students, but that was only after we knew financially we could do so. We were a startup organization, and it was important for us to conserve our funds. So the idea for scholarships actually was Julia, who left the organization. And when we got to that point, I think it was maybe our third conference or maybe it was our second conference, we were able to offer some money. But running a business, you know, you want to have money in reserve. We were able to do that, but also what you were saying about the mentoring and support, the environment for leadership is one of support. It is one where people feel comfortable enough to walk up to you and say, at least many have just come up to me and ask a question, and they may have a problem. And I don't think all conferences create that atmosphere. I don't think all conferences create that environment where you feel that comfort level. So for me, I just felt so blessed to be able to meet women from all over the United States, women of color from all of the United States, who were successful, who were committed to their careers, and committed to reaching back and providing advice to younger attorneys who were starting their careers. Throughout sessions, I think we have been able to give support as well. It's important for our attorneys to take care of their physical health, their emotional health. I believe at that first conference, we had one young lady who was obviously suffering from depression. We need to learn how to manage our finances because many start with law firms making lots of money and they don't know how to manage it. And then if they get cut and they have to go to a job paying them less, they are faced with financial challenges. So that first conference, we had someone from one of the big financial firms give a presentation on that. And we have done that almost every year thereafter, how to invest in your retirement, how to have a rainy day fund, you know, live a little below your means. And once you get to the point where you have your savings and you can pay all your bills, we want you to start investing your money in addition to retirement for a rainy day. 

Philippa: And those goals you've talked about have, you know, just as a conference attendee at that first conference, I remember learning so much that, you know, so many tools to place in my toolkit. And I know that others that I've heard over the years, how many other attendees say pretty much their cup is full when they attend a conference and they leave ready to tackle the profession, ready to tackle, you know, everything that all of the challenges that are placed before them, you know, in their in this legal profession. And just want to say to you, Marian, I agree with you that your goals have been met and just as someone who has attended every conference. And I'd like to hear from you on what you've had such wonderful conferences and I agree that they are truly an experience. So looking back, can you share some of the most memorable moments for you as the founder and CEO of LIWOCA, just reflecting over the past 20 years? 

Marian: Oh, there's so many. One was the networking reception that LexisNexis sponsored. We had several of those receptions where we sat down at tables with our hors d'oeuvres and drinks and wrapped. Each person was asked to bring a book, age appropriate for a young woman, 10 to 14, 10 to 13 years old, and write a little note in the cover of the book. LexisNexis provided the gift wrap and the tape and the scissors. But while we were wrapping, and people wrapped more than one or two books, because LexisNexis also provided some extra books for people who may have forgotten to bring some. And while we were sitting there wrapping all those books, and we wrapped over 300 books that were donated to the Coretta Scott King Academy, and to Girls, Inc. But while we were wrapping those books, we also had conversations with attendees. We met attendees, we networked, and it was a true networking event. And it was fun. And we were at the same time doing something, you know, for charity. And then also, I remember some of our great speakers, the Honorable Vanessa Gilmore, who was the federal district judge at that time for the Southern District of Texas. She was so engaging and so funny, we couldn't get people out of the lunchroom. They continued asking questions. We were ringing the bell. I was trying to usher people out. And we were 30 minutes behind our next session. She was just that fantastic. Michele Coleman Mayes. She was the general counsel of Allstate. And she brought her mentee on the stage. And they engaged in a conversation. And she was really her sponsor. But that conversation was in a format that she created. It wasn't our idea, but it was a big hit because the attendees listening to that conversation were able to walk away with some ideas from that conversation. Also, Sandra Leung, who was the executive vice president and general counsel for Bristol Myers Squibb, she was just fantastic. I think everyone enjoyed her speech. She just gave so much good advice and talked about her career trajectory. And, of course, our first conference was actually my favorite conference because it was probably because it was the first and was like, oh, my God, it's a success, able to do this. It happened. Starting anything from scratch is hard work. And when you say, don't say you Marianne, but it was after, you know, that second year, it was a planning committee. And a lot of people, including you, contributed to making those conferences a success. There's no way year after year I could have done that by myself. Although I was conference president and conference chair for 10 years. And, you know, that is a heavy, that's a heavy burden to carry, but it was a labor of love. So those are some of the highlights of the conference and just mingling with people and meeting new people. I feel so fortunate to have met women of color attorneys from all over the country who I never would have met. And also a lot in Georgia. I never would have met you. Because we work in our silos unless we go to your reception or national conference and that's usually going to you're usually going to gravitate to those sessions in your specialty it's hard to meet new people so those are some of the the highlight for me. 

Philippa: You know, LIWOCA has been so successful over these past 20 years. There's a steady flow of lawyers wanting to get involved with planning and those who attend. What else is there for Marian Cover Dockery to do? What do you envision as next steps for LIWOCA? What's on the horizon? 

Marian: Well, one of the initiatives we've already started, and that's to have regional events. We had our first in Santa Monica this summer. Teresa Becerra, who's a partner at Spencer Fane, connected with me through one of our attendees, Rachel Patterson, who I guess she said, how can we do this? And I said, you tell me what you want me when you want to do it and I'll be there. And another attorney in Philadelphia, likewise, wants to have a networking reception or a reception actually to introduce LIWOCA to attorneys and partners who are unaware of the organization to help our organization grow. So in Santa Monica, there were eight to 10 attorneys, women of color. None of them had heard of LIWOCA. All of them were excited about it. All of them wanted to come next year and hopefully, you know, bring an associate from their firm. So I would like to see us grow, but I don't, you know, it's really not my decision. We have a board now. We have a planning committee. We were an executive committee. Personally, I don't want us to grow where we've got thousands of people if that were ever possible. I like the idea of having a manageable group of people because I think that the level of comfort for many of the attorneys who aren't real gregarious and outgoing to just approach someone and ask them for advice, I think it increases with a smaller, more comfortable number of attendees. I also would like to see us create a job board so that people know of job opportunities in the legal profession. I would also like a newsletter that would give the attendees an opportunity to submit articles that perhaps they have written or already published to help, you know, get the word out that, and also that's helpful for them if they are trying to develop business. So among our group of attendees, we have so many who are representing corporations like you, law firm, and someone may see an article and be impressed with it, and that might be an opportunity for the person who wrote the article for a future job opportunity. So those are some of the things I would like to see. This podcast is great. More marketing opportunities to get the word out about our organization. There's so much room for, you know, several of these types of organizations You cannot have too many And even though there are not a lot of women of color attorneys We are scattered all over the United States. And there is a critical mass that needs to be served. And just let me just say this, that you were talking about my past. My first job, legal job, was in a law firm where it was as a law clerk. And I was so disillusioned working in that job because one of the partners came on to me and I quit. And it was a small firm. It wasn't like it was a big firm and I could avoid this guy. And so when I heard that report, I understood how many of those women felt who left their law practice. Of course, I was just clerking in a law firm a second year, so that's not the same as having a permanent job where you're depending on that salary. But just think about, I mean, you know, I thought about that. I said, how horrible, all your hopes and dreams and your excitement and enthusiasm, you're going to practice law, you pass the bar, you're entering this firm, and you're faced with all these obstacles. So I think back 40-plus years when that happened, when I was in law school, and to think that it's still going on now is very disconcerting. But I believe that women are smarter now. They can be given tools and advice as to how to circumvent that. And, of course, we have sexual harassment laws. And, you know, most lawyers aren't going to sue a firm, but they have options. They have options to work in other places that are more friendly for women and that are really focused on promoting and elevating women. 

Philippa: Definitely, the LIWOCA does serve as a place where women of lawyers can convene and share their journey, you know, obstacles, share their successes, you know, meet, find mentors and become mentors. I mean, you have just really filled an unmet need and so glad you attended that American Bar Association meeting where you learned of the Visible Invisibility Study. And, you know, as we close, you know, what would be your message to any woman of color or any supporter or ally who is contemplating getting involved with LIWOCA or attending a conference? What would be your message to them or what guidance would you provide? 

Marian: Well, I would tell them to go to our website, leadingwomanofcolor.org, and register for our next conference and tell their friends about it. I would also say if you've already attended a conference and you'd like to get involved, email our administrator at info@leadingwomanofcolor.org. Sue Ann Daniel will put you in touch with whoever is the president at that time. This year, our president is Gillian Crowl. So, you know, there's always room for help. And if you don't have time to work on a planning committee as a member, because it is a lot of work, we don't want to sugarcoat it. It's a lot of work. You can't practice law and then be involved in 10 other things and then this. Be smart about how you want to contribute. You can contribute to LIWOCA, as I said, by donating, sending an article to us, and, you know, we'll put it in a newsletter or sending your job openings, and we'll put it on a job board. That is the advice I would give to anyone who's interested. And then when they come to the conference, I would seek out a planning committee member and ask them what was involved. But don't get involved just to put it on your resume. You have to be committed because it is a time commitment. It's work. It's work. And let me just add this. It's a lot less work now that we have an administrator because we didn't always have an administrator. And our administrator is fantastic because she's also technologically adapted to doing everything. She has skills that we appreciate. And she is organized and she's worked on these conferences enough to know what has to be done. 

Philippa: Well, Marian, as we close, I would like to repeat that email is info@leadingwomenofcolor.org. Marian Cover Dockery, founder and CEO of LIWOCA, thank you so much for your commitment to improving the profession, for helping others, for providing encouragement, support, financial support even for the law school scholars. Thank you for your legacy of excellence. Just thank you. 

Marian: Well, thank you, Philippa, and thank you for all that you have done over the years to help make the organization a success as our vice chair. 

Kendra: Wow, what a fantastic first episode of our podcast, and how amazing has it been to hear from both of you about all these wonderful memories of such a tremendous organization and one that I'm very, very proud to be affiliated with. So thank you both for your time, for all your efforts over the years, and we look forward to seeing another set of special guests on the very next episode of Inclusivity Included, the LIWOCA edition. Thanks so much. 

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producers are Ali McCardell and Shannon Ryan. You can find our podcasts on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, reedsmith.com, and our social media accounts. 

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers. 

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