Transcript:

Intro: Hi, I'm John Iino and welcome to the Reed Smith podcast, Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions, and challenges, past and present, all with a goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included.

John: Hi everyone. Welcome to the podcast. Today we are in the second part of our series on Deconstructing White Privilege. We've got a number of great guests with us today. Our two co-guest hosts are first my colleagues, Dr. Dana Alvaré. Dana is our Reed Smith's global gender equity advisor for our Women's Initiative Network. Dana advises and designs and facilitates really firm wide all of our efforts to develop, retain, and advance our women lawyers. Dana's also a lawyer and holds her PhD in sociology firm, the University of Delaware, and her studies focused on the gender disparities in the legal profession. Hey Dana.

Dana: Hi John. Thanks for having me.

John: Absolutely great to have you join. Also joined by my colleague Liza Craig. Liza is a counsel in our Washington DC office, and she focuses her practice on government contracts. Liza's, also the deputy chair for Reed Smith's Black African-American Business Resource Group. And before joining Reed Smith, Liza was the senior council with the Department of Navy for over a decade. Hey, Liza. Great to have you here.

Liza: Hey John, it's a pleasure. Thank you.

John: And finally, our special guest is someone I got to know more recently. It's Jenna Chandler-Ward. Jenna is really a nationally recognized leader and practitioner and racial equity. She has over two decades of experience and educates both nonprofits or nonprofit schools, colleges and works with students from kindergarten to adult learners. She's also the founder of the Multicultural Teaching Institute, which is a conference for educators on issues of racial identity and teaching. And the co-founder of Teaching While White, which is a podcast and blog series. I got to know Jenna because I took her class, which was called Re-Imagining Whiteness. I think if you heard previous podcasts featuring Ryan Verden, Jenna and Ryan both were instructors in that great program. So it's been a pleasure getting to know Jenna. So welcome, Jenna.

Jenna: Thank you so much. My pleasure to be here.

John: Yeah, absolutely. So I just want to kick off Jenna and talk a little bit about your multicultural teaching institute and Teaching While White. What made you want to start those organizations?

Jenna: Yeah, I was an educator in lots of different forms. I worked in public schools, private schools. I worked as an education director in nonprofits. And more and more I became aware of how my identity impacted what I was teaching, how I was teaching, and ultimately how I was interacting with students. And that a lot of that was conscious and a lot of it was unconscious. And there's a lot that educators are asked to do, and I think teachers make something like 90 decisions within 70 seconds or something crazy like that. So it's very difficult to be aware of all the different ways, bias that are informed by stereotypes and different forms of identity play out and impact teaching and learning, and understanding that our education system is often referred to the school to prison pipeline, wanting to have a better understanding of my role in that. And so with a group of very amazing educators started having discussions generally about identity and how it was playing out in teaching and learning. And through that, in a very collaborative form, we created the Multicultural Teaching Institute, which is now in its seventh year. And we work with teachers from all over the country, some from outside of the country. We have a conference every summer and then we do workshops. And through that work, I became more and more interested in race and thinking about race and education. And when we talk about race and education, we almost are always talking about black and brown students, families, colleagues, and never putting the attention on whiteness as the baseline from which most things are judged, evaluated the fact that education was created for and by white people primarily in this country. And so where did whiteness intersect in this picture, in this discussion of race and education? And so really wanted to shine a light on that and think about it in terms of my own education, my own teaching, and find out what other people were doing around the country. And so with my colleague Elizabeth Denevi, we created teaching While White, which is a podcast, a blog resources, and trying to connect with other white educators because we know over 84% of teachers and administrators in this country are white. Many don't know that that matters, that they are white, that white is even a race. Many white people think that race or something is something other people have. And so we really wanted to shine a light on that and have that discussion.

Liza: So this is Liza and Jenna, thank you for that introduction. I'm sure our listeners are very appreciative of the work that you're sharing with us that you're doing in this space. I have a question about your impression of intersectionality as a concept. I mean, in a lot of the discussions that we've been having recently in this space, we're focusing on race, but of course it's not just black and white when we add in the dynamics at play that are associated with gender. And so from your perspective, how does the dialogue about race and about how we approach things from our own racial perspective, how does that dialogue change or how should we think about it changing when we overlay the gender piece specifically as it relates to women trying to engage in the discussion from different racial perspectives?

Jenna: Yeah, that's a big question. I think there's many layers to what you're asking. I think a big part of being white is that we often, we get the privilege of thinking of ourself as individuals and don't necessarily and aren't asked to consider that we have a group identity. So as white women, though, I think of myself as Jenna in my interactions. I rarely am thinking about the fact that I am part of a group known as white women and that the white women have held a particular role within American history in the conversations about race. And often that intersection is erased, that we only talk about race when we're talking about gender in particular, if we're talking about black and brown women and that whiteness is unnamed. And so when we say things like this is about all women or the women's march or we're all in this together in terms of covid and women as mothers. While there is some truth to that, the experience of white women and women of color are vastly different. And so I think it's given white women the belief that we all sort of hold the same values, that we all come because we've experienced oppression as women maybe that we have this common experience when in fact it's very, very different when you add race into that equation. Does that answer your question? I'm not sure.

Liza: It absolutely does. And for me, as an African-American woman, as a black woman, it's very interesting to hear you say that because I oftentimes think and certainly knowing I'm only speaking for myself that my race precedes my gender, at least from my perspective. So there is that disconnect, I guess for lack of a better word that might be occurring, which means when we engage in the conversation across the aisle, we might not be speaking about the same thing even though we're using the same words.

Jenna: Yeah, absolutely. And now I would say that race trumps my gender, and I would think of it in that way, but that took many, many years of self-exploration and understanding and reading and studying. To be able to see that and understand that beyond intellectually, to actually feel that and know that when I walk into a room that my race is what is present before my gender. But I think that's unusual. And I think oftentimes women use the fact that we have this intersectionality. I've experienced sexism, therefore I can't be racist. Instead of using it as a way into the conversation, we often use it as a way to stay out of it saying, well, I can't be racist because I've experienced sexism. Right.

Liza: Yeah, it's a great point.

Dana: Thank you for that. Jenna, if I may, this is Dana. Now we'd like to turn to the title of this podcast, how we want to examine a little bit about when white women cry. And we know that white women occupy a unique role in American society as both oppressor and as an oppressed identity. And I know that white people tend to be, I know we talk about white fragility, but white people seem to be a little fragile where we have taken this discussions about race, that we take this personally, that it's some sort of a moral evaluation and that white people in general get very defensive, and we've seen this very often, specifically with white women. Can you go into a little bit about how women's unique identity as both oppressed and as an oppressor, how that plays into discussions about race racial interactions and why white women in particular are very uncomfortable talking about race?

Jenna: Well, yeah. So I think in the same ways that we all breathe racism and experience it and are exposed to it constantly, that as women, we also have experienced power and power imbalances and the oppression of not having power when we look at systems and institutions and that we all learn different ways to exert power. And for white women being able to fall back on this identity as being oppressed, but also understanding consciously and unconsciously that we have the system of whiteness and white supremacy supporting us. So if we need to wield power as white women, that we can sort of execute, exercise that part of our identity, that privilege, and know that the system is going to support it. And when white women are, again, consciously and unconsciously trying to wield some power, often feeling powerless in their own lives in different ways, knowing that tears can be a really effective way of wielding power and being valued and being treated well. And there's a long history of this in this country and that wives of slave owners that there was this perception that they were always to be guarded and protected against men of color, black men in particular, and that needed to be protected at all costs and has caused a lot of violence in this country in the name of supporting and protecting the virtue and innocence of white women. So I think we often want to separate it from that history, but again, not just looking at individual events, looking at white women as a collective in the history of white women in the way we've wield power to create racial violence in this country. Again, maybe not intentionally, but as a way of utilizing power in circumstances where oftentimes women and white women may be feeling that they have not enough power, that it is an effective way to wield some by crying, by being upset, making sure everybody comes to rescue and puts the focus there instead of on whatever else is going on. It's a way of diverting attention as well. So when we've said or done something that's problematic racially offensive, if we cry, we stop having the conversation about what I just did as a white woman, and instead people are taking care of me and making sure that I am not too upset. And there are real cost to white women being upset historically and today in today's climate.

Dana: So knowing that we have this uncomfortableness for white women in particular, having this uncomfortableness talking about race and this potential defensiveness, potential tears, how do we address, do you have any tips for women who want to engage in conversations about race, which is so important for white women and maybe for people who are addressing white women about race? How do we overcome this problematic dynamic that we see with white women?

Jenna: Yeah, and I think part of that is your question about why is it so hard for white women to talk about race? We've been raised to not talk about it, right? That's part of the way the system replicates and supports itself. We have trained to think of racism as individual acts as being good people, bad people. This is a moral question. We aren't looking at systems, we aren't looking at patterns. We aren't looking at institutions. And so naturally white women want to be perceived as good people. We think of ourselves as good people, and any threat to that sort of identity as a good person is really complicated and threatening. And so part of the problem is we need to change the conversation. This isn't a moral judgment. This isn't about whether you're a good person or bad person. This is about looking at the ways we've all been exposed to and replicate racism. This isn't about individual acts, this is about systems. This is about patterns that we need to be recognizing. And once we stop having the conversation about you're a good person or a bad person, I mean, if you look at the Senate floor, I don't have a racist bone in my body. We're still being derailed by that conversation. And white women aren't engaging in the conversation because they are so fearful of being perceived as not good. And we are trained and told as we are raised as white women to be good people. That's part of the complication and the dynamic. But I think to answer your question, we really need to change the conversation. We need to stop focusing. We need to hold individuals accountable to things they say and do, and we need to stop trying to guess what's in people's hearts and minds, what their intentions were. We need to stop having that conversation and talking about how are we going to undo all the ways that whiteness, that racism has impacted all of us, and look at it at a much more systems and group identity lens, because then we can stop talking about whether we meant to what our intentions were. All of those questions that we get sidetracked by.

Dana: Thank you, those are some great points.

Liza: And Jenna, I'd like to sort of circle back with something that you mentioned that really resonated with me. I mean, you're talking about changing the dialogue, changing the conversation, and then just about this concept of change. And certainly you've spoken about what white women may need to do to affect that change, but those of us who are in the sister circle but don't have the whiteness, but we're still all in this sister circle and we're trying to move towards a place of change where we can all be more supportive of one another. How can we support white women? How can non-white women be supportive as white women are seeking to change the narrative and to move to a different place where they can recognize their own privilege in our society?

Jenna: That's a tough question for me to answer because I don't know that women of color have any responsibility to do that. I feel largely that white women need to be working with other white women, and that's where the burden and responsibility need to be right now at least. And that's not to say that we won't ultimately end up in multiracial healthy relationships and partnerships, but it's almost like we have a basic level of racial literacy that we need white folks to achieve before we can even start to have a productive conversation. Because there's so many steps in the process. We have white saviorism. That's a big step for white women when they start to understand they have privilege and they feel guilt and shame. I didn't ask for these privileges, but I have them. So my inclination is to go out and help black and brown folks thinking that's what having privilege means. And to an extent, it's not entirely wrong, but it isn't until we can fully see ourselves as racial beings, to understand how whiteness has impacted us, has privileged us, and also has dehumanized us as well, not nearly the same way. It dehumanizes people of color, but whiteness impacts white people as well. And when we can locate that, understand it and feel it for ourselves, then we stop acting as white saviors. Then I feel like we are healthier individuals in having cross-racial partnership dialogue. I don't know that I can say what women of color could or should do to support white women. I want to see a lot more white women supporting and working with other white women right now. I think that's the call that I want to make, if that makes sense.

Liza: It does. Thank you for that perspective.

Jenna: And so to add to both of your questions steps and ways forward for white women, I think part of it is changing that conversation. Stop seeing ourselves as individuals talking about our intentions, thinking about individual acts, looking at systems that we need to do our own work, that we need to read. Certainly we need to know racial history, we need skill building, and we need to not do that in isolation. We need to be working with other white women. I'm a big fan of white anti-racist affinity space where white folks can develop that racial literacy and build that self-awareness. And part of that for white women includes understanding our own emotional responses to things. Am I crying in this moment because I feel guilty? Am I crying in this moment because I feel ashamed and really able to locate where those tiers are coming from is part of that self-awareness and being able to work our way out of all the different ways that racism is functioning in those tiers. And that work really needs to happen with other white folks, and there needs to be some accountability. And white women have this also opportunity to change this history that has been that white women weaponize their female identity for the sake of supporting whiteness and white men. And we have an opportunity to change this whole narrative. We can't deny this history, but we have beyond our own individual salvation, we have an opportunity to change the history and the narrative of the way white women have showed up in the conversation and in the fight for racial justice. And now is that time, I feel like. And so I know there are a lot of white women who feel like they don't know what to do, but starting with that personal awareness is a great place to start and we need to start to build repair with people of color and in particular women of color and in particular black women because there's been so much history and damage that's happened between white women and women of color, and in particular black women. So that's ultimately where I feel like we need to head. But also as mothers, as teachers, as I mentioned, 84% of teachers are white women. We are also mothers. And I interview children for our podcast. And I'm terrified that we have successfully raised the next generation of white kids, students, children who are afraid to talk about race. And when we can't talk about it, nothing can change. And so we have this other opportunity to impact as teachers, as mothers, as family members, the next generation of white folks, so that we can change this history, we can change the dialogue and stop talking about again, the individual and think more collectively what's going on and how are we weaponizing and using power as white women.

John: So inspirational. So interesting. Dana, I'm actually curious in terms of your thoughts and reactions around all this. You've studied so much as well, and just in your position and obviously all being a mother as well, there's just so much here to unpack. What are your thoughts?

Dana: Well, I agree with everything Jenna just said. I know that I've seen from my own conversations with women and even particularly in this period of time of, shall we say, heightened racial awareness, which is great. I think it's very interesting that we have a lot of women who I know it's cliché to say, but have the best intentions. They say, what can I do? I really think that this is unacceptable. I was actually laughing with my husband the other day because I visited some of my family members who have always been very progressive in their ideals. And I would certainly not consider them race, but I would consider them very, and I didn't realize this until talking to them in this climate, very unaware of the, how should we say, the constant police brutality and the systematic issues, which obviously I've spent my whole career studying. And so what I found very interesting is a couple white women that I've spoken to recently have been very like, Hey, this is not okay. We need to do something about this. This is unacceptable. It was so interesting to me. It kind of blew me away. I guess I shouldn't have been shocked, but just very, I mean, what a privileged way to look at it. And on one hand, obviously it's wonderful that people are motivated, of course, and I like that they think this is unacceptable and want to actually get involved and are reading all of these books and asking me for recommendations and things. It's fantastic. But that response itself is just so privileged that they're like, this is unacceptable. We must do something about this. And of course, you can liken that to the, I need to speak to the manager phenomenon. But no, I do see a certain amount of defensiveness as well. So I do see that people are open to it. I think people seem to be a lot less defensive about it than they have in the past, from my perspective in my circle of white women that I talk to constantly. But I do think that Jenna is absolutely right, that it really is this, we need to have this shift to talking about the collective talking about systems. And I think we are trying to do that and moving away from the individualism, which is such an American thing, but really taking it out of this moral imperative and that it's not this something that I'm criticizing you about or I think that you're labeled as a racist or a good or a bad person with nothing in between. So I think that's really, really what we need to focus on. And I think Jenna really hit that right on the head with children and acknowledging race. I know my husband is an elementary school teacher, and he acknowledges race in his classroom on purpose and talks about it openly, talks about it with the parents of his students of color as well. And they've all said that they really appreciate that we can't change anything that we're not talking about or that we're too preoccupied with how we might sound that we don't even want to talk about it and shy away from conversation. So I think that's really the crux of what needs to happen. Yeah.

John: No, absolutely. Liza, in your thoughts as well?

Liza: Yeah, I mean, I appreciate both the perspective that Jenna and Dana have brought. I mean, being a part of this conversation has really sort of given me a new vantage point from which I can sort of see some of the challenges that white women are facing during this particular time as they're grappling with some of the conversations that we're all trying to have. And I agree. I want to just go back to one thing Jenna said I appreciate, and I've heard it echoed from many of my white friends, that exactly what you said, it should not be the responsibility of black people, of black women to educate, to handhold, to do any of these things or to take any sort of responsibility for white women collectively growing in this space. However, I think that as Dana just talked about, this idea of a collective and idea of a community, I just would hope as a black woman looking for change in this space and hoping for that as a mother, because that'll lead to a better society for my children and their children, that in my white girlfriend's quest to grow, that they don't forget about us and they don't forget about the voice that we can lend in support of them just as we are looking for their support for us. So it's complicated, but I'm hopeful because of conversations like these that are happening in different spaces that I think are opening people's eyes and that are going to ultimately bring people to a very different reality that will be to the benefit of our society going forward.

Dana: Absolutely, Liza. Sorry, I was just going to say one last thing. I think it's really important for women to realize that racial justice is a feminist cause We are talking about unconscious bias, systemic bias, systemic discrimination, and it is imperative that this is addressed as well. And so I think that it is upon women of all colors to come together and realize that this systemic racial injustice is also a feminist issue.

Jenna: And I just quickly want to add that I a hundred percent want to talk about the sisterhood in the collective and that white women need to hold each other accountable and support each other, but not in racial isolation, but in principled partnerships with women and people of color that doesn't rely on unacknowledged labor from folks of color, but also works in partnership, principled partnership with other women of color and people of color.

Liza: I love that. Can we quote you with that principled partnership?

Jenna: Yeah.

Liza: It's great. Thank you for sharing that. That's great.

Jenna: Yeah, absolutely.

John: This has been so, so powerful, and hopefully it'll be impactful. Just really enjoyed the conversation, and obviously our goal is that a lot of people will listen and help form the basis of discussions going forward. Hey, Jen, one final question. How do our listeners get in touch with you?

Jenna: Yeah, so you can find me on teachingwhilewhite.org. You can reach out to me there or through my website, which is jennachandlerward.com. And through both those platforms, people can find me and reach out.

John: Great. So I want to thank Jenna, Liza, and Dana for coming in today. Really, really appreciate all the insight.

Dana: Our pleasure, John.

Liza: It's been a pleasure. Thank you.

Jenna: Thank you, John.

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producer is Ali McCardell. This podcast is available on Apple Podcast, Google Play, Spotify, Stitcher, PodBean, and reedsmith.com.

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome.

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