Transcript:

Intro: Hi, I'm John Iino and I'm Iveliz Crespo. Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast. Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions and challenges, past and present, all with the goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included. 

John: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the podcast. It's been a while for me. I was on vacation for a couple of weeks, really appreciated the time off, but really glad to be back with everyone. I, I wanted to introduce our guest today uh in the background is that Reed Smith, we held a mental health summit back in May that was virtual, but we had just, we've covered so many important topics, as you may know, Reed Smith is very much focused on wellness. We have a whole wellness program and within our uh DEI program, we have our mental health task force that really focuses so much on the mental health of our talent and in particular at this summit, we had a panel in particular on um you know, the intersection between diversity DEI programs and, and mental health issues as well. My, my take is that, you know, mental health programs is really not a one size fits all that we see so much with, in particular of our diverse talent, some of the unique challenges that they face and traditional diversity program and you know, always gonna focus on the advancement, promotion and recruiting of diverse talent. But we don't spend as much attention on the wellness of, of our diverse talent, which is, you know, a critical component. So I'm really hopeful that this the focus and our and our renewed focus is to, you know, focus not only on advancement, promotion recruiting, but let's really spend some time in our, all of our diversity programs DEI programs on wellness and mental health of all of our people. So we're very fortunate that we have today. Our, as our guest is Doctor Sherry Wang. Sherry was a Panelist. In fact, at our, at our Mental Health Summit on the panel that took this intersection between DE&I and mental health. A little bit of background. Sherry is an associate professor for counseling Psychology at Santa Clara University. Among other things, she's a licensed psychologist and a lot of other great things, but uh I'm sure we'll get into that very soon. So Sherry, welcome to the podcast. 

Sherry: Thanks so much for having me, John. 

John: Yeah, it's, it's great and there's, there's so much that we, we covered before and want to make sure that we, we, we educate our, our audience. Uh by the way, uh for folks in our audience, uh we just recently published a report from our mental health, which is available online on social media. And the like there should be a link to it in the episode's notes for today. But it, it's a pretty comprehensive summary of all the various panels and topics that we talked about. You know, we want to make sure we're getting the word out to as many people as possible. So if you can take a look, check it out that summary report of in particular, some of the mental health issues that people in the legal profession faced. So, Sherry, you know, you've done some really, really remarkable work focused on some of the factors that disproportionately impact the mental and physical health of diverse individuals. So, yeah, share with our audience a little bit about your backgrounds and the focus of your studies and really what inspired you to, to get involved this work. 

Sherry: Sure. Thank you. Well, it's so good to be back here and to be sharing a little bit about this. I, I always think, you know, with any presentation and, and any talk you want to know who is the speaker? Why, why you right, what is your background? And so I'm happy to share a little bit about that, you know, I'm a licensed counseling psychologist. I'm a Professor of Counseling Psychology, I teach in master's level counseling program. I identify also as an anti racist educator. Um And I am a researcher that focuses on, on ethnic minority mental health and specifically looking at health disparities amongst by poc people of color. And really my, my purpose in doing that, looking at these disparities is not to say, look, look how badly communities of color are doing. It's to highlight then what do we do about that? And, and what are the reasons for that? Because so much of this work uh depending on the lens that, that you're using to study marginalized. To me, historically, underrepresented communities, oftentimes unintentionally put the blame right on the communities that are suffering to say, well, if you only picked yourself up by the bootstrap, you wouldn't be in this situation, if you only worked harder. X, Y, Z. And, and that's really not the answer. The answer really is in looking at the systemic factors that over time have contributed to people who are marginalized, being even more marginalized. And so my training actually comes from my background as an immigrant myself. I'm Taiwanese American and I uh studied my, my graduate training specialization was on immigrant refugee mental health. I really wanted to do trauma informed work with my communities and to really think about the ways in which my privilege has afforded me as well as cost me, you know, opportunities and to be able to do that in a way that really then advocates for the diversity um within Asian American communities and Latino communities. And so that really was where I started and then my work really started focusing on racial justice dialogues. Um How do we have these difficult conversations about racism, about privilege, about white privilege? And in that way, um I knew when I, when I graduated, I needed to go somewhere to make a difference. I moved to the Deep South. And this is to be um for my first tenure track professor job and, and that was where my work then really shifted in looking at then access to health care, you know, particularly for African American communities thinking about then HIV in particular as really not only the most fascinating, I think disease there is but but also in terms of all the ways in which oppression is, is intersectional with this one disease that really criminalizes people, not only, not only at that level, but then even without the component uh the social punishment that people experience across a number of identities, from sexual orientation to sexual behavior, to religion, to race. And then to also what that means for folks living in rural regions of the country. So really and in all of these ways, I I now identify as, as really somebody that does ethnic minority mental health work because it's really focused on African American mental health, Latino Asian immigrant, refugee, mental health. And my clinical work has been with native communities as well. So I'm back actually in California, my home state and that's maybe part of what we'll be talking about too in terms of self care, that as meaningful as it was to do the work that I was doing in the Deep South as an Asian American person. I really just did not find a space where I could fit in personally. Right? It's such a black and white context. People would be like, what are you, are you Asian? Are you Mexican? What is this yellow caramel color that you have? And and for me raising mixed kids, my partner is my partner is Latino. So, you know, thinking about kind of how they would grow up and how exotic size they would be treated. I really felt like I needed to be back in a community where there was this kind of diversity I needed like access to ethnic food, direct flights to my home country to see my family. And so those are some of the reasons that prompted me to leave, but then to continue to do this work now in a place that also nourishes my soul. John; For us here in California, we welcome you back to be back here in this diverse state we have. So you mentioned, you know, for example, for people of color, you know, the various communities access to health care is certainly a significant issue. What are some of the reasons that lead to, you know, some in inequalities in the healthcare systems for uh persons of color. LGBT people with disabilities, et cetera. 

Sherry: Sure. I mean, the biggest one is really lack of access, right? I think there's lots of research that highlights stigma and then I will get to that in a little bit. But I think the most important thing is really about all the ways in which there are barriers to care because it is just not available to people geographically, perhaps financially, that's really the biggest issue. And then really then when it's available, it does not actually mean it is accessible. So so just because it's there doesn't actually me and people feel like it's tailored for me or that people who look like me or who have my experiences are going to be welcome to be there. And, and so, you know, some of that really is also mental health literacy that we are not a society that values or prioritizes mental health and that teaches people how crucial it is. And so not knowing where to search or how to begin to even access mental health care, even if you have the means to be able to, to do that. And then you get to the stigma part of like if you do, if you're interested, the stigma, the judgment, not those, not just of those around you and thinking about like, oh what's wrong with you? You know what, why are you going to go seek mental health. Are you broken? How long will it take for you to get fixed? You know, these very, in some way, superficial questions that are treating it like an ends to a means as opposed to one that is focused on well being, right? Mental health care doesn't necessarily mean it has to be something people go to only in times of crises to fix, right? Uh something like a band aid approach, it can also be to enhance your well being to have better quality of life. And of course, that's a privilege too right to be able to then access resources and to take the time and energy and focus on being a better person. All of that though is really contingent too right on, on your own attitudes and your own shame perhaps in how you think of it. Do you think about it as a self care that you are entitled to have? Right? And do you think about it as like exercise or going to doctors for preventative checkup or do you think about it as something is wrong with me? I'm broken and I need to do that. And then even when you do want to do that, gosh, for people of color, for, for marginalized individuals and communities finding a provider that is a cultural match is very difficult. And I'm talking about cultural match as opposed to just ethnic match, right? For people of color because you may not necessarily want somebody that is an ethnic match because of stigma, you don't want to perhaps be judged, right? Because you want to see somebody who is an outsider of your group rather than insider. But really if you want to see somebody who is an insider, that's very difficult because you know, there's just not that many of us BIPOC clinicians also because of all the things that we see in our society with racism, impacting mobility, right? And people being able to access institutions of higher education as well. So that, that, that's the challenge too of are there resources for people to be able to access health care? And then when they are, what are the network limitations? For example, right, oftentimes companies will have may have insurance coverage, but it has to be in network, it has to be with certain groups and that those groups may not have the exact person or, or the demographic or background or specialty of the people that you really need to see or want to see to be able to feel like that is a safe person for me. 

John: What I'm hearing also is that there's the lack of resources, right? The lack of access. And so if you're in an underprivileged community that you know, that would be an issue because you don't have clinicians or, or psychologists or practitioners that culturally, you know, you identify with or because the resources just aren't there for certain communities um or because the insurance programs aren't there. But it's interesting that in addition that, for example, Asians are 51% less likely to use mental health services than whites. Latinos Latinx are 25% less likely to use mental health services than whites and blacks, African Americans are 21% less likely. So in addition to kind of the the barriers to the health care, you know, opportunities or system, what, what kind of specifically does it drill down into some of those communities are the reasons why we're not seeking or not taking the opportunities of seeking mental health care. 

Sherry: Sure. So, so in addition, right, to, to those kind of systemic barriers, right, of, of resource, right in and of itself, there's also racism in terms of, you know, working with a provider that just does not get you and may even shame you um because they don't understand your culture. And we actually do know that even when communities of color go to therapy, that the dropout rate is very high because there's there isn't a sense of cultural competency or perceived even cultural competency or, or adequacy of the person you're working with to understand you. And so if you're already feeling really low and you're going to to talk to somebody who really, if you think about therapy, you're going to share your deepest darkest stuff, right? The things that you don't even tell your partner or your friends, your family. It's stuff that you reserve for somebody that you're really trusting and, and to have that kind of intimacy with somebody then who does not get you or who may say things to you that are so culturally incompatible or shaming, gosh, that not only just closes down a person from wanting to try therapy again, it may close them down to the health care system in general feeling like I can't trust health care providers. So, so even just getting folks in the door, I think is, is not enough. It's also how do we retain, you know, people of color and therapy? You know, how do we make sure that all clinicians are culturally competent? Right? Because we do know people of color certainly, then we'll be able to speak insiders and understand for example and talk about racism. Uh We'll be able to respond in ways that are going to be culturally responsive. How do we train white clinicians to be able to be cautious of their own fragility or reactivity when a client is talking about racism and saying, you know, I hate white people right now and to be able to sit and hold that rather than be like, but what about me or what about the good white people? Things like that? Where then a person of color or even any person who is in a marginalized position, feels like I have to protect the person in power and their feelings and their fragility. 

John: No, absolutely. So, you know, a lot of your, your research, you know, you kind of identifying these systemic barriers, right? And in fact, I know you said it kind of creates this dangerous cycle. And so in the end, these disparities kind of compound and reinforce themselves, what, what can we do? What, what, what, what are the kind of first steps to try to break this dangerous cycle? 

Sherry: I'm gonna go right to the top, which is funding and policies. That if we look at in the highest level of the system, right, when it comes to barriers to mental health care, if there were funding for everyone to be able to access mental health services. And I'm talking about culturally sensitive, linguistically sensitive mental health care services. And if there were policies in place that normalized and made treatment available accessible and affordable, then really stigma wouldn't be as much of an issue, right? It it would really just be do I want to do this or not? And I would also say too that, you know, Western Eurocentric models of, of mental health are also very different from many communities of color just thinking um about for, for Eastern traditions, for example, right, that the kind of mind body connection that there's a stereotype and and an assumption and, and it's kind of a mainstream argument that Asian Americans don't seek mental health because it is shaming. Um and, and because there is the stigma right, that, that something is wrong with you. Certainly there's that. But if you think about kind of traditional indigenous, you know, treatment and healing practices that were done or that are being done in Asian countries, for example, and other cultures and countries, it's very holistic that mental health care is part and embedded in physical health care. But in western, you know, kind of traditions we separate that there's the physical health and then there's the psychological, mental health. And so, you know, thinking about, you know, traditional forms of healing too like acupuncture, right? Or, and thinking about going to sweat lodges for Native American communities that there's so many indigenous practices that we don't recognize in this country. And in this context as legitimate sources of healing, it only has to be Western and there are so many biases in that because if you think about therapy in and of itself, it actually has a very Christian Catholic actually underpinning, there's some, some research that has, has highlighted that that there's a confessional aspect to it, right? You go in, you have to be very verbal, first of all, right? So, so therapy is not culturally neutral, right? It is really best and ideal for folks who are able to be very emotionally expressive and verbally expressive for quote unquote talk therapy because it's a confessional experience where the assumption is, if you talk it out, it will be cathartic for you. But for cultures where it's more solution based or problem, you know, oriented and problem solving that may not actually be helpful. And so, you know, I think those are some things to think about in terms of cultural sensitivity, even at the very foundational level of what we're funding and what we, what we deem to be the best or the evidence based types of care that for many other countries and cultures, that may be a way, But it's certainly not the only way. 

John: So interesting. So interesting they, that separation between the, the physical and the mental in my own coaching, I really try to emphasize the inter connectivity of everything. You know, if you're not, if your emotions aren't right, if you're physically not right. You know, nutrition is not right how that all affects, shows up in work and it just, you know, when people start to realize it's all all connected, you know, that's that so important. 

Sherry: That the spiritual component. 

John: Right, absolutely. You know, I can certainly say that spirit part of all of it is hopefully we all can find our spirituality, you know, no matter what your religion may be, but just to find, you know, your, your, your spiritual self. So think about, you know, you talking about the funding and things like that, but you know, what role can allies, let's think about others that can really help deconstruct these barriers. You know, what, what can I do as a person? What what can our, our organization do specifically beyond just, you know, changing the, the, the healthcare system overall? 

Sherry: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. You know, I have so much respect for those who understand and practice the law because of the power in which they hold for knowing how the system works. Right? I, I really think about knowing the law, knowing the local legal system as, as then knowing the rules of the game and if you don't know the rules of the game, you don't even know what your options are. You don't even know how to move forward. And, and you know, I'll talk about the Asian American community, for example, right? There's a stereotype and an assumption that that Asian Americans are, you know, quiet, submissive, differential, put their head down it, it's a character of us and I, I talk about it as a caricature because those are descriptors and characteristics that others have imposed on us, right? Outsiders looking in at us rather than what we would call ourselves. And those are terms I think that would be used to refer to new immigrants anywhere and everywhere. And that is also the the the the burden that Asian Americans carry and that we are always treated as perpetual foreigners, right? Where are you from? Where are you really from? The stereotype of us is that we're new, rather than rightful citizens who belong in the US just as much as any other person. So the role of the legal system is really important here. And this is what I've been talking a lot about actually is, is that when we think about, you know, why there's a stereotype it, first of all does have to do with racism, right? Of, of using a white supremacist lens to look at Asians as outsiders. And then there's this other part of, well, you know, our ancestors in this country did not know the rules of the game. Now, if they do and looking at subsequent generations, if you look at the younger generation of Asian Americans, we speak up, we're loud, we, we protest, right? We do these things that people think about it as a cultural, which is really about cultural adaptation. Like, oh, you're more Americanized, you speak up and I think that is part of it, but I don't think that's all of it. I think a large part of it is knowing how the system works, knowing where you can have voice, knowing what the rules of the games are. And so I do think that the legal profession, you know, law, the discipline of law is really powerful and letting people know what their rights are, what they're, what they're obligated to. And you know, in thinking about that, when you know, you have options, when you know, you have rights, when you know what you're entitled to, you inevitably become more empowered because there's agency in being able to make choices rather than to be powerless. So I think when a lawyer or when anybody that's not a counseling psychologist, right? Or, or a practicing psychologist, when any professional says, hey, have you thought about, you know, counseling, have you thought about taking up self care for yourself because it can be powerful in these ways and really being able to vouch for that and introduce that I think it can be really powerful because it is using your expertise and your legitimacy and your power as an expert in your area to really then give credibility to a discipline that is often stigmatized actually. Our, our field, my field of psychology of providing therapy is often looked at as a last resort when everything else has failed, right? And people are referred from the er, because of somatic complaints, they have physical pains, they have backaches, they have headaches and GI issues and it really, they couldn't find anything physical. It's really because of the psychological, then people come to us, but we're like this last ditch effort because of the stigma and because we don't have a lot of credibility. And so when other professions like the law profession, which everybody respects says, you know, actually seeking counseling services can be really helpful in this way. And I do think that that can be offered in a way that isn't just you have to buy into therapy, it can be encouraging people to do it even as an ends to a means, right, that going to therapy can be a way to track your progress. For example, baseline where you were to where you are and that could be helpful in the court of law perhaps, right, for documentation purposes that could be helpful in terms of asking for accommodations down the line, right to see then how things have have fared for you after maybe something traumatic happened or in demonstrating that there is a need because of neurological diversity. I I think those are things that people don't think about unless outsiders really then are willing to put themselves on the line to really say here's how helpful counsel can be rather than you may want to consider therapy because I think you're crazy, which is what people often assume that recommendation is for. 

John: I know we talked on our previous panel just thinking about, you know, our diverse population and we as whether it's people of color, LGBT, persons with disability, we suffer from microaggressions over racism. So many things that it just has a cumulative effect on your overall, you know, mental health and and it's as much as it's challenging, trying to get promoted and get a raise and all those kind of things. It's just that ongoing burden of, of, you know, laying on top of you on top of everything else. So thinking about kind of that population of, of talent, what what are some of the other kind of challenges in addressing this because you know, how can we uniquely, I know, I know you you addressed in terms of clinical or, or therapy, you know, specific, but how can we address some of the challenges specifically for our diverse population to address some of these issues, to let them know they have support. And as I say, it's not one size fits all and, and how can we make sure that we're serving that community? 

Sherry: Yeah, I think that's a great question and you're right, it's not one size fits all right? Because every culture is different even within an organization. And yet I think for diverse communities, right? For diverse staff, it really boils down to do I feel valued at my workplace. Can I bring all of myself into the space? And, and when I say, can I bring all of myself into the space? It isn't like, you know, showing up naked, right? Like, like, can I do inappropriate things? It really is about like, can I, can I show up in all of the ways that um I would without having to hide these cultural parts of myself? Um And, and I think that that that is a huge part of why people of color have to put on a mask to go to work at times. And that when they are, there's so few of us, right? Um And we represent a diversity um that representation can, can turn into tokenization, right? Because representation, while the intention can be good and while there are certainly positive effects of seeing people who look like us in positions of power. If you think about the person who is having to represent, they didn't choose to want to represent, it means that everything they do is under the spotlight, right? But it doesn't just speak for themselves. It's if you do badly, you make the black community look bad, you make the Latinx community look bad, right? Um If you do well, good, you should because there's a pressure, I gotta look good so I can bring more folks that look like me in, but I also can't mess up. Um And so there's a lot of pressure for people of color and, and that's not just people of color, but for people who are having to represent an area of diversity that just is not there and there's so few. And so then they really become then the spokesman for it without even wanting to. So then there's also the emotional labor then of having to teach people of having to call out as well as call in those micro aggressions. Um And having to do this work that really, I think people consider it to be quote unquote soft skills, right? I mean, this is work that is not being financially rewarded and it is work that is very, very laborious and draining um and actually reduces a person's ability to be productive. And then the sad part is oftentimes then people of color then get celebrated for being resilient. When, if you think about it, nobody wants to be resilient. Like why would I want to be resilient because it means I've had to be. Um So I think it really is about helping people feel valued and when people feel like I can bring all of myself, you see all of these different parts of me. Um And so how are these different parts of me able to be supported? Right? From my family to my cultural heritage, to my um my hobbies, people then are going to be doing better as a whole, not just as a worker, but, but as a human being. 

John: I love that. And so I had this aha moment because you know that certainly at Reed Smith, we, we try to encourage people to, you know, express themselves be, be themselves, bring their authentic selves to, to the, to the workplace and through our um our, BIGs or we call them business inclusion groups, you know, having some support, having some community feeling like there are others that you could, you know, rely on. But the, the, the missing link is having those mental health professionals to help you help you through that journey, right? And to be on staff and, or, and the like to really, you know, fill in that piece because we're not licensed therapists or, or, or psychologists. So to be able to fit that missing piece of the puzzle to help people with that ultimate goal is, is just fantastic. So it's a little bit of preview to like I, I guess what I wanted to ask is, so what do you think in terms of the future, you know, for organizations like ours with respect to, you know, how can programming evolve to support the mental health of our population? 

Sherry: I think you've already named it really early on actually John, that, that even this podcast, what we're talking about, we're not just talking about mental illness or distress, right? We're also talking about mental wellness. We're talking about well being. So that when we talk about psychological health, we're talking about health, right? And it's really about helping people be even better. Uh and that when people are in distress that we certainly people to grow better from that too. Um but we want to support well being and not just pain and sadness and sickness. We we aren't just giving people extra vacation days or leave because of sickness or because they're going to the doctor's visits. We are celebrating mental health days, take a day off and go do something fun, play hooky, you know, but, but everybody gets one of those days like that, you're being able to talk about these things. And I think being able to talk about all of these ISMs from racism, sexism, classism, hetero sexism, right? All of these things and recognizing that it is a system that we are all fighting, right? That, that there is not one individual who's responsible for all of these things, but we are all victims of oppression. And so how do we then help support each other and advocate for each other with the powers that we do have? Right? Because some of us have more power than others in certain situations, in certain identities. It it is, it is a very fluid process, right? And, and not constant. Um And, and so in that way, then how do we advocate for each other so that we can all grow better? Um and, and stronger together? I think that's going to be really the focus rather than how do we help people be more, well be, be in less distress. 

John: Thank you. You're so inspiring and hope our listeners were able to gather a lot from this as we see the, you know, the new future for, for organizations like ours. So, Doctor Wang, Sherry, thank you for coming in and sharing all your insights with our audience. You know, I, I really believe this is an area that we really, really need to focus a lot more on and all your work is, is certainly so illuminated to what uh what we need to do. So, thank you again for coming in. 

Sherry: Thank you. 

Outro: Inclusivity included is a Reed Smith production. Our producer is Ali McCardell. This podcast is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, Stitcher, PodBean, and reedsmith.com. 

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. 

All rights reserved.

Transcript is auto-generated.