Transcript:

Intro: Hi, I'm John Iino and I'm Iveliz Crespo. Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast. Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions and challenges, past and present all with the goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included.

Iveliz: Welcome back to Inclusivity Included. I'm your host Iveliz Crespo and today I'm joined by guest co-host Tom Gates. Tom is an associate in the Entertainment and Media Industry Group in London and the co-chair of PRISM EME, Reed Smith's LGBT employee resource group. So today, Tom and I have the privilege of interviewing Omar Alanis, the managing partner of Reed Smith's Dallas office and the US PRISM Chair, Tom thank you so much for joining us as guest co-host today. Really excited that you came up with this idea to interview Omar. And Omar thank you so much for, for allowing us to highlight you with this episode.

Tom: Yeah thank you very much. I'm very much looking forward to interviewing Omar and getting some of his thoughts on this topic.

Omar: Very happy to be here.

Iveliz: So Tom, why don't you kick us off with the first question?

Tom: Great. Thanks very much, Iveliz. So Omar, thanks again for joining us today. My first question for you on this topic of LGBTQ+ History Month is, in the last year this has brought about a considerable amount of anti-trans and anti-LGBTQ+ legislation in the US but also internationally. In light of these attacks why do you think it's still important to acknowledge and reflect upon LGBTQ+ history?

Omar: Well, I think it shows that there's still so much work to be done in the fight for equality and that has evolved over time, you know, with respect to different issues in our, in our community. And the latest one unfortunately is against the trans members of our community. And it just goes to show that, you know, we can't be complacent because we have made quite in the on the US side, at least so I know we've made quite a bit of strides at, at, at the US Supreme Court level, but crafty people that are motivated to attack our community have stayed vigilant and therefore we need to stay vigilant.

Iveliz: So Omar, thank you so much for that. And you know, I'm really happy that you're here and you're able to share your wisdom on these LGBT issues impacting us. The name of the podcast is Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories and part of what we like to do is to showcase it's not only people's wealth of knowledge and various issues but to highlight who they are. And so just for our audience who may not know who Omar is, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what drives you to be an activist to be an advocate in this space?

Omar: Yes, thank you. I mean, I think of a lot of it, the motivation frankly is my own personal history. From a very young age my parents kind of always instilled this view that, that I was going to be successful. And I never really kind of understood that, but I was always kind of always was on the path to kind of fulfill that prophecy and everything was going great until, you know, I started getting into the profession. And there were some obstacles that I faced almost immediately, some setbacks that occurred almost instantaneously. And it did put me quite a, you know, it took me backwards uh in, in my path. And so I spent quite a bit of time in my, the early part of my careers getting back up to or I felt like I needed to be and I wanted to be, but it took a lot of work. And so I, I started actually at a very small firm which is a great firm, but I had no intention of doing bankruptcy restructuring, which is what I do today, zero intention of doing that. But it was literally only one law firm in Dallas, which I did not intend to live in Dallas, one law firm that gave me an offer from law school. So, I mean, and I needed to work, I, I came from a very humble background. So I, when I, I started in the, in that field, you know, I just was determined to be the best bankrupt lawyer in my field. And so I just kind of continued on that path and there were some struggles and hiccups along the way. And it took a while to kind of get on what I would say at this point, it's a little bit more of a cruise control. So now, now I'm able to sort of like reflect and sit back and be mindful and, and try to help the next generation so that they don't have to go through those troubles that I did.

Iveliz: And thank you so much for that. I mean, you are certainly a role model for so many people at the firm and the audience might not realize this, but we're really privileged right now in that we have two representatives from one of our most active employee resource groups or business inclusion groups as we call them, PRISM, and we have representation from the London office but works with EME. And we also have Omar who is the US chair. And part of why we have those positions is there are nuances and differences between some of the experiences. And so we want to make sure that our group is inclusive of those experiences. Given that, while we celebrate LGBT History Month in the UK, it's a different time. It occurs at a different time than the US. But what do you think are some of the core experiences that are relevant to LGBT communities worldwide?

Omar: Well, and I'd love to hear Tom's thoughts on this, but so our, our pride usually celebrated in June, which I think is the best way to describe it is a little bit of a mixture between the awareness of the struggles that we have have gone through and that continue that we continue to go through, but also a celebration of who we are. And that's a very key core part of our pride festivities. In October we have a National Coming Out Day which is October 11th. And I think that is coinciding with the UK's uh LGBTQ+ History Month. And that, to me that's, that's hugely important. In fact, I haven't discussed this much in our PRISM meetings, but I do intend to make quite a big push this year on National Coming Out Day in the US-side because I mean, I know some folks that are allies but really members of our community and everyone comes from different backgrounds, you know, so you could have the most inclusive environment, but because of their background, maybe it's taken them a little longer. And so to me that, that's really important is like focusing on celebrating yourself for us. That's more October and then the community, of course more in June.

Iveliz: And thank you and, and Tom, I know that you're serving as an interviewer today, but I love your opinion. I know that you're working very hard across the globe. And I want to hear your thoughts on despite our differences, what are some of the things that really, that are the core experiences that we all experience as members of the LGBT community?

Tom: Yeah, thanks Iveliz. And just on Omar's point about kind of the dates being different as is typical for the Brits, we like to have things in quite a logical order. And so February for us is LGBT History Month, which I kind of see as a reflection on the past. Whereas Pride Month over the summer, June and July is more a celebration and a reflection and looking forward to the future, still acknowledging and reflecting on, you know, the history that stands behind us. But in terms of common experiences, though, I think that it's clear from the nature of the firm's collegiality and the collaboration between myself and Omar and the rest of our PRISM colleagues worldwide that there are common experiences that we, we all witnessed and kind of experience in our everyday lives. And it's definitely something at the moment that's focused more on the letters in our acronym that are kind of less represented or underrepresented. That's everything apart from the G essentially. And one of our goals this year is to really bring to the forefront, are siblings who are LBTQ+ because historically, they have not received as much attention and importance placed upon them as the G. And that's something that we would really like to focus on this year. And it's one of our core objectives for the year.

Iveliz: That's fantastic. And I'm really happy to hear it. And we're very fortunate to have you both really driving these issues.

Tom: Omar just on this topic of pride. The, you mentioned that it's often seen as a celebration. Some people say that pride is also a protest. What are your thoughts on this statement? Because I know some people do like to take it as a time just to celebrate and have fun. But other people think it's something much bigger. So I just wondered what your take was on this.

Omar: I think it's both. Where we are right now it is, it is certainly both because I, I think that, you know, obviously on the protest side, there's still a lot of work to be done. And, you know, I, I was drafting a, a post last year during our pride month in the US and, well, I, I don't usually come up with creative phrases, but sort of what just came out of me was fatigue is the enemy of progress which is probably like the most lucid thing I've ever said, but I think it's so true because I was trying to encapsulate like, you know, a, a conversation I've had with Alan York and others that no matter how hard we try, there's always some new challenge or some new attack and it can be fatiguing. And if you let yourself, you almost could just wallow away, which is what the other side kind of wants you to do. But we're not gonna have progress if there's fatigue. So you do have to, you know, at least my view is that part of the, the pride acknowledgement, you know, during our our pride months are, you know, that's sort of part and parcel of it. But I also think that the celebration part is key because we should celebrate who we are. So much of the time that I spent in my younger years was, you know, in with my own internal struggles just based on the way society viewed me and now we're at a time where I feel like I should celebrate myself and my friends and my family and my kids. And so I think it's, it's sort of a holistic pride celebration plus the protest part.

Iveliz: I think that's that very valid. And I always like to think that there's room for both, right? I think we can acknowledge that all of the fighting that has taken place for us to be here at a point where we can celebrate who we are. And granted, it doesn't come without the limitations. It doesn't come with about the attacks and difficulties of living in this day and age. But I still think we can celebrate and still acknowledge that it took a lot for us to be able to have a pride celebration. It took a lot for our ancestors, the people who came before us. So I love what you said there. So what do you think are some of the key contributions made by LGBTQ people in the legal profession?

Omar: Uh Well, I mean, in the US a lot of where we are not only with respect to our legal rights, but as how, you know, our place in society is because of the great strides that have been made through the legal process. And so just kind of thinking back to 2003 with the Lawrence v Texas decision that went up to the US Supreme Court that struck down anti sodomy laws. That was, that was important because II, I don't think that the sodomy laws were being used to prosecute people, but it sort of just provided sort of the narrative and the undercurrent of, of categorizing LGBTQ+ people with pedophiles or other, you know, sort of like immoral groups or behaviors. And so that decision was I think more symbolic than anything. And then that kind of led into, you know, Obergefell in in 2015 on marriage equality.

And then most recently in the US I mean, there's a trio of cases that were all heard at the same time that I think don't get enough press for the substantial impact that was made, which is on the employment discrimination. In the US Title VII is a, a strong, strong protection against employee discrimination for race, sex, national origin, religion, color, but the open question was always, where do, where do we fit into that? And I was shocked and quite surprised that the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that we are protected under Title VII, which was hugely monumental from a lawyer perspective, from a geeky lawyer perspective, that to me was so much more impactful, I think than just about any of the other recent decisions.

Iveliz: Yeah, absolutely. And I think one of the things too is oftentimes when we have these conversations around our contributions as LGBT lawyers, one of the things that we often miss are the community groups, the LGBT people who may not be lawyers but have driven social movements and created the necessary culture, right? In order for these rulings to happen as someone who practiced LGBT rights prior to transitioning into DEI, I often felt that some of the biggest movements, some of the some of the most headway that we would make on LGBT issues were because of community organizers, those grassroots organizations that are there knocking on doors that are there trying to help sway the public's opinions and viewpoints which obviously impact these movements and lay the groundwork for us to be able to come in as LGBT attorneys and argue these cases and change these laws.

Omar: We have a few good groups in the US, Lamda Legal, HRC, some of these are focused on the legal side, that's more Lambda Legal. They're, they're fighting in the courts and we're actually assisting them right now in some of the gender care case. But then you have HRC, it's a little more focused on legislature and, you know, policy issues. I'm a board member of the National LGBTQ+ Bar Association. So, you know, that's sort of hitting it on, on all fronts. So there's definitely a to your point, Iveliz there's different groups that are, that are trying to address the, the needs of our community in different ways.

Tom: I think that's a really good point, Omar as well just on these groups and the memberships they offer because it can sometimes feel overwhelming as someone who wants to help. You know, how do I get involved? You know, you mentioned all these really gargantuan and substantial movements in the US and some people might think how can I as an individual contribute to those? And I think it's great about what we can, the power that we can sort of harness here at the firm is we act for so many pro bono clients, offering them and their causes. Many of which are LGBT-focused legal advice on challenges. They may have received anything in between. We really do offer a full service to our pro bono clients. And it's those sorts of actions that you as an individual can take to help further that cause without feeling like the problem is insurmountable. So I think there's definitely something we can all do to contribute and kind of add to the improvement and I suppose just improve the way in which LGBT people are seen by society.

Omar: Yeah, I mean, there's, you know, right to your point, it's not just about like the, the sexy Supreme Court cases, it's, you know, name changes, which we, we participate in some clinics there, there's lots of opportunities to get involved. And so, you know, any listeners want to get involved in those pro bono efforts, certainly contact me or Tom. Happy to get you in touch.

Tom: And I suppose just on that point, Omar and the work we do here at Reed Smith just back to you for a moment. How has your position as the managing partner of our Dallas office impacted your influence as a role model? And do you think this gives you a more effective platform to influence change?

Omar: Yes, absolutely. Um And I guess there's sort of two ways to think about this. One is a very concrete way which, you know, you would expect, which is, you know, in terms of like leadership and setting tone, culture, recruitment you know, these are all ways that I, I can demonstrate through actions, you know, how this role is helping DEI efforts. But oftentimes, I think we miss the more subtle aspects of being in a, in this kind of role. I was reflecting recently on a conversation I had with some interviewers, you know, common criteria when we interview law students is, are they confident, can you see them in front of a client? You know, uh uh you know, in a pitch or, or whatever and interviewing two students and one of them was a very polished straight white male. He was brilliant, great, great pedigree. He had worked at a country club. I mean, he was, this guy was just really smooth and then we had a Hispanic or Latinx person who a lot of great credentials on the resume, it looked all great, but the interview wasn't as strong. And so, you know, the, the feedback from the interviewers was, well, clearly we should be hiring this person because they really stand out. And I'm thinking, well, I, I mean, I said, you know, I was like, wait, hold on. If I think back to where I was, when this kid was interviewing, I was a disaster. This person probably is even even more articulate than I was. And it's part of maybe the reason why I struggled at the beginning. But when I kept hearing, you know, well, you know, this person has, you know, maybe like this GPA or this uh interview style that doesn't work, whatever, whatever I was like, I had all of those. And if I had you interviewing me, like, I would not be here.

So I do that quite frequently and I always think that at some point someone's going to like, push back. But I'm I guess, pleasantly surprised every time I have used those opportunities to educate and, and talk to people about my experiences and about how they should be shifting their thinking about certain issues like interviewing, it's always received in a very welcoming and a very positive way because my view is that, you know, just based on my experience, I've been in several situations, particularly in Texas where I've been told, you know, here I had a view of, of gay people until I met you and now I realize I was wrong or I was unfair. And so it's just a matter of giving people the opportunity. There's some very good people that maybe don't have inclusive frame of mind. But once they receive some education, you can really see some change. So that's kind of what I'm more focused on is sort of like the subtle aspects of it because the other one's pretty easy, the more subtle tasks are a little more challenging.

Iveliz: Thank you for that Omar. You know, I think one of the things that we often struggle with when we're trying to make change in organizations is how do we make sure that those changes are sustainable? Right? And so from a policy perspective, how do you support the creation of meaningful and sustainable DEI initiatives?

Omar: Yeah, I think this is something I feel very strongly about. I mean, I'm, I think you do have to have the right policies and action plans and, and that sort of, to me it is just a baseline because it's something that I can refer back to and say, hey, remember when we, as a firm said, we're going to do XYZ or we had this plan? Now is our time to execute. So I have been in instances where I have been very vocal about making sure that we're being, you know, mindful and considerate of our policies. And this is another one where I mean, I'm just gonna keep on protesting to your point, Tom, until somebody tells me that I can't, but I just, I don't, I've never had that situation. I mean, I, uh I, I'm pretty vocal when it comes to those types of, of issues and it's always been pretty well received. 

Tom: And Omar just on that point, um obviously, right now, we're all sort of preaching to the choir and that, you know, we're in a group of very inclusively minded people. But when it comes to and you've touched on this, our colleagues and others, what do you think makes an effective ally?

Omar: I think the effective allies have taking the time and effort to educate themselves. And I can really see that in our platform and and others where the allies want to learn, right? I'm just as, as an example, use of pronouns and education about the difference between gender identity, gender expression, sexual orientation. You know, these are things that to a lot of us make them a little bit second nature, but you know, it's sort of can be an intimidating concept to our allies. And so, you know, there are some that I think could even well intentioned people just not take that extra step to really kind of understand the differences and the proper use of pronouns and creating a safe space for use of pronouns. But I've, I've, I'm encouraged when I see strong allies that, that want to learn and, and want to implement.

Iveliz: That's great, you know, and obviously we all know that pronouns are of a particular interest to me and I agree with you. I think some of the strongest allies I've had aren't people who necessarily are not just people who will 100% go on and take on fights and take on battles on our behalf. But are the folks who take the time to really understand who we are as people, educate themselves about our experiences, and I think those small things that people can do really go a long way at helping create and sustain allyship. Because I think when people think allies they automatically think you have to be an upstander. You have to be someone who is willing to take on the fight. And I think that to some extent, some of that is true, right? As an ally, that's part of the obligation. But the smaller things those day to day things getting pronouns, right, you know, not making these assumptions about people's partners, right? And not saying, hey, you know, did you bring your wife? Right? Not doing those gendered things. Thinking about how do, how do we include people and make them feel like, you know, they belong without alienating them. And so I think people, those are the small things that we don't think about as an, you know, when we think of allyship and I think they're incredibly important and I think it goes to the heart of that sustainability.

Omar: Right. I, I completely agree and, you know, something I was thinking of it, it's not, doesn't fit exactly in your, in your questions. But I like to uh I've often said, you know, if you see something, say something and going back to my point of, you know, just a lot of people are, there's, there's some people that are just kind of, I wouldn't say like not educated about it, but it if they may think they're in a safe space to say something disparaging about a member of our community. And yet I'm there, right? So when there are opportunities to say like hey, you know, I don't think that's right. Or da, da, da, da or even more subtle, like, you know, and if somebody says, you know, what does your wife do? I mean, I could probably just say like, oh, marketing, right? Or, or they are in marketing, but I always take the opportunity to say actually it's a same sex partner or something like that just because, you know, you want to give people a kind of awareness.

So I, I think another thing that allies can do is that when there are those instances when like, for example, what you just said Iveliz, I, I've seen that before where it's like, oh, you know, is so and so bringing their wife or are we gonna invite wives to this event? I'm like, you mean partners or, or, you know, significant others? Because that just to me it's almost like that's like a no brainer, but it still happens, right? And so, you know, maybe it may make them feel uncomfortable if you correct someone, but I just think you should always take those opportunities. You don’t have to be hostile or aggressive. It's just like, you know, just I think you mean partners, right? And the message usually comes across as long as you're not being, you know, aggressive about it.

Iveliz: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's true, you know, we want to encourage that upstander culture and I think we're seeing more and more of that. I know there have been instances in the past where I've experienced alienation or mistreatment, right? Because of who I am and my identity and flash forward, even within the last couple of months, I feel like I've seen a shift in people's willingness to kind of speak up on things. I think part of it has to do with our roles and the work of PRISM, really educating people on the importance of pronouns on the experiences of LGBT people. And so I think some people get it more now because we're putting so much of an effort in the education piece. And I think it gives people, I think one of the things that prevent people from speaking up is feeling like they're not well versed or educated enough to kind of speak up, they don't know if they should be speaking up. And I think, you know, as we educate people more as PRISM become more active as LGBT issues get more visibility, people start understanding them more and more feel like they're coming from a stronger place when they're interrupting instances of bias like you just described.

Tom: Yeah, I totally agree. I think that's one of the, well, it definitely is one of the key objectives of PRISM this year is the educational piece because as you say, you believe the more we talk about things and normalize those conversations, they become so much easier for everyone else to discuss. On the education piece recently in the UK we have run a number of workshops internally and externally with clients on the use of things like pronouns and inclusive interviewing skills. And that has made a huge difference and the feedback we have received from that has been overwhelmingly positive. So I do think the education piece is incredibly important.

Iveliz: Yeah. And I think people want to know it, you know, as part of the core DEI team, we lead a lot of external and internal facing programming. And every year when, when I do the pronouns presentation, it is by far has the biggest turnout. And I think last year we had over 750 people RSVP to attend that session. It is by far the most popular session that we put on. That's part of the reason why we've, I've done it annually. It's at request, right? And in addition to that, I can't tell you how many clients have reached out after watching that session asking, hey, can you make this so that I can share it with our organization or can you come in and do this training? And you know, I've partnered with other folks in PRISM like Nat to deliver these sessions. And it it, it just always surprises me how much in demand people are for this information because I think that it's not as accessible, right? If you're not thinking about these issues, if you're not out there looking for them, you know, you don't really know where to start. And so I'm so surprised every year when we get that much interest in the, in the pronoun presentation and the LGBT competency presentation. So just back, you know, Omar, back to you, I know you told us a little bit about who you are and I know who you are, right. I'm a big fan of you, but as someone who is Latinx, who is LGBTQ, can you tell your listeners more about the role that intersectionality has played in your lived experience as an attorney? Particularly thinking about when you first entered into the industry, how did your identity really impact how you approached your career and your career trajectory?

Omar: Yeah. At the beginning of my career, I think there was the challenges where I think were a little bit more because of my racial diversity frankly. And so, you know, there's some struggles that are sort of unique to biases with the Latinx community that I had to overcome. But then fast forward, of course, there have been other, you know, challenges I've had as an LGBTQ+ person, not just in the profession, but also my personal life. And so being able to see sort of both sides of it or not two sides of it, but another side of the struggles it, it has, I think it helped me be a little bit more mindful of the diversity even within our diverse communities, right? Because even as a gay man I mean, to Tom's point, I mean, there's a lot of tension about on gay men and to a certain extent we have male privilege even though we are members of the LGBTQ+ community and of Latinx. I, I feel like I, I think a positive evolution in our, you know, diversity initiatives is the, the concept of intersectionality and the view that, at least it's my view, that we're a diverse community and that is inclusive of our community and racial minorities and disability and other marginalized groups. There's something to be said about safety in numbers and having a powerful voice and the louder your voice is, you know, the more you can probably affect change. So I think having that it's almost like allyship within the diverse communities, but also recognizing, you know, and a lot of the intersectionality for those of us who kind of are on multiple different communities. I think that's really kind of helped solidify our movement for equality generally.

Iveliz: Absolutely. And I think you can even just look at history and see, you know, even in movements, right? When movements don't have an intersectional lens or they don't have support of other communities, they don't tend to be as successful. One of the things I like to think about when I think about intersectionality is that at each given moment, all of us can hold varying identities, we can have an identity that's an oppressed and we can have an identity that's privileged. And so when I tell people about allyship, it's not necessarily that you have to be someone who always in every instance is privileged. It just means in that instant, at that moment, if someone else is being marginalized and you have a privilege in that and you one of your identities, you leverage that privilege, right to support someone who's being marginalized. And I think that that's what I love to see about our business inclusion groups at Reed Smith is that we know that we're stronger together, right? We know that attacks on gender identity may not necessarily, people may not, I don't necessarily think it's directly impacting cisgender folks for example. But in those instances, we need those folks to step forward and step up. And so I'd love to think of intersectionality in that way. It's not that you're always going to be marginalized. You know, your identity is not always going to be privileged. We all hold those varying identities. And when one of us is being marginalized, we should leverage our privilege if we have it in that moment. You know, Omar, it's been such a privilege to talk to you about these issues. And Tom, thank you so much for developing this episode.

Tom: Of course, thanks for having us.

Iveliz: It has been really wonderful, you know, and I say this, it's a beautiful day. It's early here, but it's, it's always a beautiful day when I get to spend it in community. And so it's really nice to be here with other LGBT folks talking about issues that are very personal to us. And so thank you both for sharing your wealth of wisdom. It's been a privilege having you and I'm sure our listeners are going to get a lot out of hearing about these perspectives and experience experiences that you've shared.

Omar: Well, thank you so much for inviting me. I really enjoyed this and Tom, thanks. This was really great. It's really excellent and happy to do more of these in the future.

Tom: Well, thank you very much for coming on and sharing your experience with us Omar.

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producer is Ali McCardell. This podcast is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, Stitcher, PodBean and reedsmith.com.

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions ,or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers.

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