Performing through mistakes, change, and pressure with Bennie Fowler – Part 2

Transcript: 

Adam: Welcome back. I'm Adam Massaro. I'm in the Reed Smith, Denver office, and this is Disputes in Perspective. And I've got a special guest for our second part of this podcast, Bennie Fowler, Bennie, welcome back.

Bennie: Adam, appreciate you having me.

Adam: And Bennie, just for the audience benefit, we talked a little bit about your past in the first go around, talked a little bit about your experience in the NFL, winning Super Bowls and all types of other exciting stuff like that. And talk to us about mindsets, but we couldn't cover it all in one pod. So I want to pick up and cover some new topics in this one.

Bennie: All right, let's do it.

Adam: So one thing that I think is fascinating that I think athletes do better than most is dealing with a mistake, dealing with a drop pass, dealing with interception, dealing with a complete whiff, and then moving on. In contrast, lawyers, especially in private practice, are, I think, horribly bad at it. And I think it's part of it is sort of it's ingrained in the practice to sort of acknowledge the mistake and not necessarily move on. But there's, I think, a lot we as lawyers can learn about how we deal with mistakes and overcome them, especially from former professional athletes. So if you don't mind, talk me a little bit through the mindset of when you make a mistake and how you overcome that as an athlete.

Bennie: Yeah, I think it comes with practice and the higher level that you get to in sports, you know, there are going to be mistakes because the people that you're playing against are just as good, if not better than you. So I think you start to understand that. And it's always funny because I do a little bit of media stuff covering the Broncos right now. And when I think or when I hear other people say, how did that happen or they should be the team by this much is that they forget sometimes that on the other side, that there are other professionals and mistakes will happen. Athletes are just like everybody else. They're human beings and mistakes will happen and make mistakes will happen in pressure situations. And sometimes it just is what it is. And I made plenty of mistakes in my life. I didn't always handle them the right way. I think going back to not, I think, but going back to my high school, first ever varsity basketball game, I'm playing at the end of the game, get a steal at the end of the game is the fourth quarter, go up for a layup and I get fouled the first time I actually really, really been nervous. And I go to the free throw line to shoot two free throws and take my dribbles, shoot the free throw and the ball lands like three feet short of the rim. And, you know, in high school, it's all about popularity and being cool. And I was super embarrassed and my eyes started to fill up with tears because I was so embarrassed and I get the ball back to shoot the second free throw. I still got to shoot a second free throw. And all I'm thinking in my mind is just hit the rim, just hit the rim. And I think sometimes in life people hit the rim or just go or try to hit the rim after making a mistake. And one of the things I wish I knew at that time in life is that, Hey, nobody's perfect, there are NBA players who've airballed free throws, and these are the players who are the best of the best. So I think, you know, you have to, the best way I would say of working through mistakes is to put yourself out there more and understand that you're not perfect. Also my speaking coach, when I, when I go on the stage and I speak and when I first started out, I was like, Oh, I got to get every word right. You know, when I'm speaking and he was like, no, that's not how you speak. You need to speak naturally. And he said, you don't, don't think about you messing the words up. Think about the audience. Number one, but then also they don't know what you're getting ready to say. So stop thinking about the mistakes so much. So sometimes I think we put ourselves in these situations where we're only thinking about the mistake and then it makes it that much heavier when it does happen, but I don't know any perfect people, Adam, do you?

Adam: No. In fact, I think there's a humility to the interesting part is at the highest levels. If you could have a self-awareness that you are fallible. I think it's a tremendous superpower if you can get there.

Bennie: Yeah. And then I think, you know, as, as I've gotten older and as I think about my playing career, if I've done everything in my power to prepare for a given situation where there could be some mistakes or where I don't want to make any mistakes, but I've prepared my butt off, then I can live with the results.

Adam: I think one of the issues with mistakes too, and this is a specifically an issue in private practice for lawyers is, you know, we hold ourselves out especially because the rates we charge is having to be perfect, which is absolutely important, but sometimes that, that means that people are too cautious. They don't make the right choice because they're too afraid about making a mistake. And a lot of that is driven by the senior partners, the senior litigators, things like that. So there's tone at the top. So I'll be curious from your perspective, because I think you can learn a lot from coaches in private practice litigation. From your perspective, what was the type of mentality of a coach you like to work with the most, or you like to be under versus ones that you ultimately just thought was the wrong approach for you?

Bennie: The coaches that I loved were coaches who held and had a level of accountability for you, but also to make practice a lot harder than the game would be, so put you in these really high pressure situations in practice, and then when you would get to the game, it was, it was not necessarily easy, but it was easier. Playing in Denver and some of the best teams that I played on. So the two teams in Denver, my first couple of years, and then in 2020 in New Orleans, those teams would put you in situations or walkthroughs or pressure situations in practice. So those games, you were ready during games for those situations whenever they would come up. And as we're recording this podcast right now, the Denver Broncos are number one in the AFC, they've won 10 games, but they are situationally one of the best teams in the NFL right now. I think that's a direct reflection of Sean Payton, who I played for. End of game, end of half, they are one of the best teams in the league. And I think that is why, one of the reasons why they are and have been super successful this year. So he was a great coach that I played for that would put you into these situations. And he was a great teacher of understanding these things, but he never made a big deal about mistakes. Now he wanted you to be great and make plays, but he never made a big deal about mistakes. So the best players or best coaches that I played for, they didn't want you to repeat those same mistakes over and over again. Like, hey, we can't keep having this certain mistake on this certain play. They won't go for that. But as long as you are putting the effort and preparation in, they can live with the results and mistakes are going to happen.

Adam: How about as far as part of mistakes, too, is recognizing when you got to cut bait and switch to the new option. So trials and games are not that dissimilar in the sense of you have a full game plan going into it, but then that can completely get torpedoed by halftime, by the end of the first quarter. It doesn't matter. But it's interesting, like I've seen other attorneys pursue a case that they had one set of sort of beliefs about how the trial was going to present. It was evident it wasn't, but they were still on that same chapter at the very end. And it's like you can't have a game plan without execution. And it ends up being just, I think, an abject disaster when it goes that way. I am curious about when you've been in games where whatever the game plan was just ain't working. What was sort of the ability of the coach, the leader to change the approach? And how quickly were you able to see that change need to happen?

Bennie: Yeah, I think it comes to number one, collaboration. That's why the coaching staff in the NFL is so big. So you have the head coach out there and you got the play caller, but then you also have these position coaches, offensive line, defensive line, receivers, running backs that have this input and that can help you adapt and adjust in real time. And whether you're a trial lawyer or whether you're coaching the NFL or playing in the NFL, being able to adapt and adjust in real time is actually the real superpower. At least professionally speaking from the NFL standpoint, the teams that can adjust in real time from quarter to quarter, half to half, are the ones that can win Super Bowls and championships. When you look at Tom Brady or Bill Belichick, they had these visions for certain games and certain weeks, and then they would execute. And you've heard or you can hear and you can look up certain game plans. The Patriots played man to man, I think, in the 2016 or 17 season where they beat the Rams in the Super Bowl 13-3. They played man to man the entire season and they played zone defense in that Super Bowl. Just they adapted and adjusted based on the team that they were playing. And that's one of the reasons why they won six Super Bowls. So I think adapting and adjusting in real time is one of the most important things. But I think life is a team sport, so you need collaboration. So if there's a lawyer in their own head and they haven't adjusted to what's actually going on in the present moment at the trial, who's somebody that can point out their blind spots? That's why I believe in coaching, life coaching, executive coaching, who's going to be the person to hold up the mirror? You can't achieve anything great in life without the help of other people.

Adam: What made you decide you wanted to get certified and go into coaching while you're still in the NFL?

Bennie: I met this guy by the name of JP Flom and we had an incredible conversation where he was pretty much asking me questions and getting my values and understanding my values and helping me dream bigger than what I was currently talking about. He asked me about my goals, but number one, they were all self-centered and around me and no one else was in that picture and in my vision. So he helped me dream, helped me see bigger things for myself, but then also point out, hey, this is what sounds like is most important to you. What are these words? I hear growth. I hear resilience. Which one of these words really means most to you and what does that look like going forward? So having that conversation with him, I was like, I want to be able to have these types of conversations with people and asking questions, being able to hold space is something that has, you know, some people have it naturally and then I needed to learn it and I think it's helped me post football in any conversation that I can have or I'm having with somebody is that I can hear their values, not just the words they're saying, but what certain things really mean to them or don't mean to them. You know, they might be saying that they really care about something, but that's not what I see in terms of their body language or their actions. So that's why I wanted to do it and it helps me in everyday life.

Adam: Through that evolution, is that what spawned you to decide to draft your book?

Bennie: No, I think I've always, I love self-improvement, self-help books. So I just wanted to tell a story in a different way and I saw my book as a, my business card post football to get me into different rooms to show that I was more than an athlete and that I had taken the time and to really write a book, share my story and share a message, but not only a message of myself, but the people around me.

Adam: So the title is Silver Spoon, right?

Bennie: Yep. Silver Spoon, The Imperfect Guide to Success.

Adam: Was that the original title?

Bennie: That was.

Adam: All right. Did you know the title before you knew the book?

Bennie: Yes. That's awesome. I think, you know, a good friend of mine, Titus Trotter had always talked to me about the work ethic that I had, but you hear a lot of stories on TV of athletes from rags to riches or bad situations or poverty situations. Well, that's not my story and not my case, but that doesn't mean I don't have a story to tell in terms of how I got to the NFL. And that doesn't mean it was just given to me because I went to private school or I grew up in these homes or, you know, had these different types of friends. Like that doesn't mean I was, I was still undrafted, still had to go out there and make the team. They didn't, they didn't, the Broncos didn't sign me because I came from a good background and household. They signed me because I could play football and I wanted to share that side of it. But then also there are some, some people in my story, my brother's story is very different. My parents' stories are very different than mine. I have some other friends in that, in my book where they share their story. They share their story and they didn't grow up like me at all.

Adam: You know, moving past professional sports, as you think about sort of the next chapters and once in my view, once you sort of master your, your own trade, the question then is how do you, how do you scale? How do you get to capacity and increase capacity? Cause that's to me. The hardest thing is, you know, once you've got yourself figured out to a degree, where do you go from there? So in your experience or thoughts, what, what are some ways you've seen, for example, that you can increase capacity? How does that look to you as you move forward?

Bennie: From the coaching standpoint, I've seen, they're able to take on so much and do so much because of how they surround themselves with the right coaches and other people who they can delegate things to. For myself, post football, like I said, life is a team sport. My wife helps me a tremendous amount with, she helped me a tremendous amount with just my transition. And I, I don't say that lightly when you transition out of the NFL, if you've played as long as I played and I retired at 31, I didn't make my first doctor's appointment until I was 31. So she had to help me do those things, find a primary care doctor, because those are things that are done for you in the NFL. The doctors come to you, the trainer handles everything. So you have to learn how to do that, set certain things up. What does it look like to have a years of life where it's not always around you? Because, you know, you have the season, you have your 17 weeks and everybody, you know, comes to watch you play, or, hey, they know that this time is blocked off and it's focused for you. And then when you retire, it's like, no, 365, you have to learn how to balance that, meet different people. How do you get out there and meet people in terms of work? You know, when I think about reaching out to Keith Roberts, who's a mutual friend of ours, and that's how I got a chance to meet you. But going to those dinners, putting yourself in a situation to really adapt and adjust comes from meeting people like yourself and having those conversations or getting invited to certain things and saying, yes, but yeah, life's a team sport. The people you interact with, the things you say yes to, that's how you increase capacity to me, is how you surround yourself with the right people to delegate to, but then also build friendships to build you up.

Adam: When it comes to motivating people, I think that's, in my view, a big piece of expanding one's capacity is that delegation and to motivate others. It seems like it's perhaps easier in professional sports because the motivation is just right in front of you in that respect, but perhaps different in private practice, in the business world. Now that you've transitioned, you know, what do you think are good motivators versus ones that don't work in outside of, I guess, the NFL?

Bennie: Well, the motivation in the NFL isn't always there. Some people are just very gifted in they're not motivated to work as hard or they don't care. And you hear that and you see that all the time. I think 50 percent of first round picks don't make it to their second contract. So not everybody is motivated. That might, you know, their goal might have just been to get to the NFL. You see coaches bring out the best in people with their message. I think the best coaches that I played for had a vision for each player and they could communicate that vision to each player, how they fit into the team. And I think that's no different than in corporate America. What is your vision for certain people? If you want to motivate certain people to do things or run through a wall for you, what's the vision that you have for them? How do they know you care? How are you showing that? It's not just about, hey, did you get that thing done? But, hey, how are your parents doing or how's your wife doing or how are your kids? Do you know their names? Peyton Manning didn't have lunch necessarily with players all the time. He'd have lunch with the janitor staff or knew everybody by their first name. Because to win a championship in the league, you don't it's not just about the players. You got to know the cooks. You got to know the people, the support staff. You got to know the cooks. You got to know the people, the support staff. Because if they give half ass effort, they'll cook half ass food or they'll forget certain things. So I would say that's how I saw people motivate is seeing the other person, not looking through them, but seeing them.

Adam: I wonder if to, you know, in professional sports, it's so metric driven, right? So there's at least theoretically an objective way to recognize, you know, layers, there's going to be intangibles, but at least there's an objective component. To me, it seems like that's one of the things that's harder when you are outside of professional sports is there's more subjectivity and less objectivity in performance and things like that. And I'm curious if you think that's a good thing or if there's things that you could pull from professional sports you wish you could do as part of your playbook in life.

Bennie: Yeah, I wish there was a scoreboard every week of, you know, what is a great week? What does a win look like that you can put into your belt or under your belt or whatever, put into your pocket? Yeah, I do wish there is a lot of subjectivity in terms of what a great work week looks like. And it's different for everybody. But yeah, that's the one thing in corporate, I wish that there was a clear scoreboard at each team. I mean, for my job right now, it's clients in the door, but the sales cycle is long. So what is the sales? What does the scoreboard look like every single week for that process? Is how many meetings is it? And what's good or bad? Like for somebody who's new, five meetings a week is great. For somebody who's seasoned, is it 20 meetings? Is it 15 meetings? What should it be? And what's the standard in there? For somebody not to get or lose their confidence on, but like, hey, this is a really good week for me. 15 meetings, oh, I'm three years in or I'm six years in at this company. 15 new meetings this week, that was great. Or 15 new conversations. Yeah, that's a really good week for me. And then I can judge it off that. Okay, past 15 is really good. And then under 15, okay, what needs to change? And okay, if I keep having that week after week under 15, okay, now my managing director needs to come in and we need to talk about different strategies of sales. So yeah, I do wish that was there.

Adam: The one topic I want to finish up on is, looping back, we talked in the first pod, a little bit about the importance of health and wellbeing, because it makes you be able to handle the scale, the pressure, all the things. My thesis is, I think, professionals, lawyers, whatever, should dedicate and treat themselves like professional athletes when it comes to mental wellbeing, healthcare, self-wealth, all those pieces. And I think we don't think about it in the same way, whereas LeBron or any professional athletes, they dedicate a percentage of their salary to wellbeing, exercise, all those things, all the support. In my view, I think others should do that as well. And it sort of seems laughable when you look at it that way, if you're not a professional athlete. But from my perspective, I think there's so much value in dedicating it. But I'll start with a simple question and we'll go deeper. What percentage do you think one should apply their income to personal wealth and wellbeing, regardless of whether you're an athlete or not?

Bennie: That's hard to say because there's a lot of different modalities and things that you can do like Headspace, which is an app that you can use for, I think, $70, $79 for the year for your meditation practice. You can do the ice tubs at home. That's not that expensive. You can find the Planet Fitness gym membership for 10 bucks. I think more, you bring up a very valid point. I think people should take care of themselves like that, especially in high-pressure jobs and situations. The one thing that's very different is, for the example, the name of your firm is Reed Smith. And at your Denver office or at the offices around the country are all those things in the building for you to take care of. That's the one thing that athletes have, is that we go to work, we can do everything in one spot, which makes us, we either do it at home and LeBron probably gets his massages or things like that or some of his modalities at home. But when he goes to the Lakers facility, all of those things are right there. The sauna is right there. The cold tub's right there. The weights are right there. His mental coach is right there. That's the one thing about Corporate America that's very different. It's like, oh yeah, I want you guys to be health and wellness, but hey, there's a gym over here that's 20 miles away. You want your nutritionist, that person has to come to your house or you have to go pick up your food. Professional sports, all that stuff is done right there. Yes, I agree. Yes, and I agree with you for sure. People should dedicate a percentage of their salary to their health and wellness. I don't know what that is, but also their employer should just make it that much easier to have it done. It's an investment also. So the Lakers or the Broncos or whoever, they see it as an investment on their players. One of my buddies, Michael Silverman, has actually just started a company to do this with Goldman Sachs and a couple of other companies. How do you bring all these modalities in-house for your top performers? The people who are on the road or who need this support, how do you get that done?

Adam: I think that's where the future is.

Bennie: Yes, sir. I'd love to see it.

Adam: Well, Bennie, that's all the time we have for today, but I appreciate you joining and going deep with me on these topics. It really means a lot to me. So thank you so much for joining us and giving us your thoughts.

Bennie: Absolutely. I appreciate you having me.

Adam: Thank you.

Outro: Disputes in Perspective is a Reed Smith production. This podcast was produced by Shannon Ryan and edited by Julian Baughman. For more information about Reed Smith's litigation and dispute resolution practice, please email [email protected]. You can find our podcast on podcast streaming platforms, reedsmith.com, and our social media accounts at ReedSmithLLP.

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers.

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