Transcript:

Intro: Hi, I'm John Iino and I'm Iveliz Crespo. Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast our guests will share their personal stories, passions and challenges, past and present, all with the goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included. 

John: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the podcast. This is John Iino, he/him, we've got a really exciting and, and interesting episode today with our special guest, Doctor Gen Herley. Gen I got to meet uh through a panel we were recently on and just, you know, blown away by everything that Gen’s doing and, and, and, and has done and so really wanted to bring her on to our podcast just a quick background. Gen is an LGBTQ advocate and the founder and executive director of Trans New York. Doctor Herley also serves on the board of directors of, I'm From Driftwood, which is focused on sharing and, and publicizing coming out stories. Hey, Gen, great to see you again. 

Gennifer: Hi, John. It's wonderful to be here. Thanks for having me. 

John: Absolutely love having you on our show. And actually we have another special guest or guest co-host today. That's my partner, Alan York. Alan is a partner in our, our Houston office. Uh just does amazing things in there. But among other things, Alan serves as the chair of what we call PRISM, which is our LGBTQ+ affinity group. So, hey, Alan, great to have you on the podcast today as well. 

Alan: Good morning Gen. Good morning John. I'm so glad to be here. 

Gennifer: Good morning Alan. 

John: So many things to talk about here. But you know, Gen, let, let me start first with, you know, part of what we try to do in, in, in this podcast is really highlight the personal stories of our guests because obviously that the title is powerful personal stories, but it really brings to life, you and your, your background and all you're trying to accomplish. So we know that I know, but maybe our audience doesn't know that uh you know, you were a therapist and, and advocate and as you mentioned, founder of Trans New York, but tell us just a little bit about, you know, yourself, your, your background and how you got to have found Trans New York. 

Gennifer: Sure, sure. So a lot of people in speaking to me think I’ve been out my whole entire life, but I haven’t. I’ve only been out for, it’s going to be 4 years in June. But I was in the closet for over 30 years and really how I came upon a process, I mean, going back 30 years ago, there was no terminology, there was no transgender, there was no internet. So I really didn't have access to really much, but I really had a feeling inside that I really needed to express myself as a woman and just didn't know what to do with that. I actually thought I was crazy. So I sought out a therapist and the first one I went to, I was married at the time. The first one I went to didn't work out at all. And she suggested I tell my wife everything at that time. And I was definitely afraid to lose my wife. I loved her dearly at that time. So it's been really a lifelong sort of journey into personal development, mental health for myself and all that I've been through over that time span, you know, drove me to first before Trans New York, I had a small counseling business. It was called the Better Life Counseling. And I hadn't transitioned at that point. And I was in a bit of denial, but I was working with people with their gender identity. And it was extremely helpful in a lot of ways because as I was helping them, they were sort of helping me see my side. So I was very driven by that. And then when I decided to come out, I really decided to just immerse myself. I said I have a lot of time to make up for and I really want to serve the community as best I can and help people through the process because transitioning is a really complex concept. I mean, it, it may sound easy or people don't understand it. it's really difficult and there's a lot of thought that really needs to go into when somebody decides to transition, somebody decide to come out in public. So that's really what motivated me to really get into helping people in transgender, gender diverse community. 

Alan: And so Gen, one of the things that I find so fascinating is the, the focus on mental health issues. And I think that's Trans New York is something that focuses on that specific area. Is that correct? 

Gennifer: It is, yes. 

Alan: You know, and, and, and I'd love for you to talk a little bit more about that. I know you, you mentioned living in the closet for 30 years and I think all members of the LGBTQ+ community know what a dark place the closet can be and what demons can live there. And, and I think we have such an obligation as more senior members of the community to try to, to break that down as much as possible and to really face head on some of those mental health issues that come about as the result of that. So can you talk to us a little bit about specifically within uh maybe the trans community, what some of those mental health issues are that you see come up on a regular basis? 

Gennifer: Well, you know, there's anxiety, gender dysphoria is, is really, you know, the largest one which goes into anxiety which goes into depression and then we have body dysmorphia as well. And sometimes I get a little mixed up with gender dysphoria. And I like to tell folks uh this is sort of anecdotal on my part. But since I'm part of the community, I think I can say it that gender dysphoria really never ever goes away. We manage it. It's a process of managing it as the years go on and I always try and help my clients understand that, you know, it's not gonna be a straight shot up. We just want to prevent it from being a straight shot down. So, you know, the the mental health challenges are really, it's really all about acceptance and really it starts with oneself. I think I was mentioning before, you know, I was in denial about my own gender for years and years and years. And I, I just thought, you know, that this is impossible, you know, this, this couldn't be me. And it really became clear to me that this life of having two lives was unbearable and I, I could no longer live like that. I was having a lot of trouble controlling the message and I, I was desperate, desperate to let this out. And, you know, since I have, it's, it, it's been wonderful. But like, I always like to tell people that there's a lot more to transitioning that goes like social status. I happen to be a middle class person. Race. I have white privilege. I have a doctorate education. That has made my transition somewhat easier. Not that it hasn't been brought with items that are difficult, but for people who are marginalized in particular kids, you know, they get thrown out of their homes, families get broken up, people get divorced. There's a lot of things that go into this. 

Alan: And so just one follow up question, how does Trans New York reach out to the community to help address some of those mental health issues? 

Gennifer: So we have a big social media reach out that, that we have on four platforms, Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, all of them were on. And we also do outreach with other organizations. You know, we work with a lot of LGBT organizations within New York who are working with the trans community but may not be working on the same sort of programs that we have. So we feel that collaboration is really important. I'm a person who understands that the trans community is a very small sliver of our population, you know, maybe 2% you know, we've got 330 million people in this country. We really need to educate. Education is really the foundation that leads to understanding, understanding leads to acceptance. 

John: So so much there. And, and thank you for your work. You know, you, you mentioned just the mental health aspects. I don't know the the statistics, but I just know that, you know, the folks that haven't come out, they have oftentimes suicidal tendencies because of that darkness that, that Alan mentioned. And, and in particular, I really appreciate what you said about the, you know, represented groups or that marginalized groups and not having the privilege than thinking about the folks in those communities and all the, you know, struggles that they have beyond just their gender identity. So thank you for highlighting all those issues. And so one of the things and especially think about addressing the mental health concerns, you mentioned the families, whether it's the spouses or the parents kids general we've discussed before that you work with also the families and supporting the families through transition or through the issues that the the person faces. So can you give us maybe some, I don't know, anecdotes, stories or specifically what are you doing in terms of assisting families? 

Gennifer: Yeah. So, you know, we try and work with families directly. Most of the clients who come to us, I would say range in age from 18 to 28, not to say we don't get a little bit younger sometimes or we don't get people in their fifties. So a lot of these, I call them kids because I'm gonna be 60. You know, a lot of these kids are living at home and it's, it's very interesting when they come see me, when they come see me with their parents, a lot of the kids think, well, she's a trans person, she's gonna be on my side. So I'm not on anybody's side and I'm a parent. So I have a 22 year old daughter. She's not trans, but she has some other things going on with her. She's got social anxiety, she's got depression. So I understand from a parent's perspective the worries about, but what I always try and tell parents is they should be really happy that their kids are coming to them. I mean, when I was a kid, there was no dialogue with my parents, right? The other thing is is that kids are not being influenced, right? So yeah, there's peer pressure with things but trust me, nobody's, you know, talking to them about, you know, you should change your gender and they're actually, you know, sometimes parents say to me, well, you know, she identified as a uh as a lesbian and now she's saying that she is, is a trans man and how can that be? So I say, well, they're working through the process of discovering who they are and one of the biggest issues that we have out there. I know it's on here somewhere. We talk a little bit about it, you know, was the anti-trans legislation. You know, I teach sociology, I was just teaching about, you know, this particular issue. Right now in our society, we have a, a much greater level of acceptance of the LGBT community than we did when I was 18 years old. Right? So I like to say we let the genie out of the bottle to some degree. Right. We let it out. So, but the kids who are coming out at 13, 14, 15, they're at a critical developmental stage. Right. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't transition if, if that's the case, what it really means is they need more services, not less. And I'm gonna tell you something, the suicide you've mentioned. So I know the rates John, unfortunately, they're etched in my head. 42% is the suicide ideation of transgender individuals. That's in the course of a lifetime opposed to the regular population. That's like uh 6%. It, for Hispanic people, it goes up to 48%. And for black African American, it goes up to 55%. So we know that culture plays a role but we what what we're going to end up seeing is a rise in this ideation as a result of any of these laws that will get passed. 

Alan: And Gen, I wanna, I wanna pick up right there with what you're talking about because I agree with you. It's, it's we you can, those of us who have been around for many, many decades in in the movement can see the real progress that has happened on, on many, many fields and you, you put your finger on one of them, which is kids feel so much more comfortable with exploring and expressing who they are at a younger age. But it is catastrophic to me that that is being weaponized against them. And I specifically wanted to bring up. Unfortunately, as I mentioned to you earlier, I live in Houston, Texas. I love the city. Don't love the state so much all the time. And recently, you know, the governor issued a letter encouraging the Department of Child Safety to turn in parents who were seeking gender affirming health care for their trans children as child abusers. And I'll tell just a very brief story about this. I had a, a very good friend who's a partner in a major law firm who has a trans child. And she called me right after this letter was issued and said, look my child, I'm supporting them, they're having hormone blockers and, and getting gender affirming care and it is an open issue at her school because it needs to be. And there are things that we have to deal with. But I find myself in a situation now where the very school where I've been trying to create a safe place for her is now under a potential legal obligation to report me as a child abuser. And I'm trying to figure out do we need to move to another county, to another state? And I can only imagine the harm that is done to children who are finally being able to express themselves, suddenly finding themselves facing issues that they should never have to face like this. And so I just wondered if you could, you could talk a little bit about what the impact is on our trans youth who are, are having to face these politically created melodramas that are intended to do nothing but cater to a political spectrum. 

Gennifer: And really, I think that's the crime of this whole thing. You know, in, in some sense, I just was talking to somebody about this yesterday. I might be able to respect somebody's opinion if, if it was their opinion about the gender affirming care and they really believed in that, but they're doing it to get votes. It's, it's an absolute disgrace. This is gonna be devastating for trans youth. There's just no question about it. And I am shocked. I really am shocked and it was so interesting on the, on the political spectrum, you know, mostly the right talks about liberties. I mean, let's just think for a moment. I talked about my own daughter. Suppose one day somebody decides that social anxiety is made up. It's not real. OK, then she wouldn't be able to get the care for that. I mean, there could be no end to this. And the ironic thing is those are the same folks who are anti-government, overreaching and this isn't a complete overreach into the lives of Americans. I'm a parent. I would just, I don't know, I would think about moving. I mean, what else? Can you and some of these folks can't move, they can't afford to move. Where would they work? I mean, it's, it's really going to be, I'm telling you that I told you about the suicide rates before how high they are. I think we're going to see unfortunately an explosion of more mental health and I'm sorry to say the suicide ideation, which is just, it could, it could make me cry, to be honest with you. It's just really criminal. It really is what's going on. And as I said, the politicalization of it, it's just devastating. 

John: So tragic, so tragic to, to witness that. Alan, I actually wanted to bring you into the spotlight as well. These issues that we're talking about to really, you know, kind of taken center stage more more recently. And, and for example, the recent confirmation hearings of Justice Brown Jackson. You'll recall that she was asked to provide what is the definition of the word woman. So, you know, do you think that these, you know, political legislative attempts to limit the rights of the trans community will, will continue? 

Alan: Yeah, John thank you for asking the question. It's and, and it, it tags on exactly with what Gen was talking about. I I don't doubt that there are certain people who have sincerely held beliefs and have a lack of education and understanding around these issues and it highlights the need for education. But I also firmly believe that a lot of these issues are very sort of superficially simple issues intended to be dog whistles to a particular portion of politicians base. And, and we see that in a number of situations, we see that like you said in the, in the questioning to Justice Brown Jackson in, in, in her confirmation hearing on, on issues that had absolutely nothing to do with her abilities to serve as a Supreme Court Justice. But it was an opportunity to feed a narrative into that. We see it in, in Transports issues with the, the recent NCAA medal that Lia Thomas won and Gen, I'm sure you saw this, but it was interesting that, you know, there was something on Twitter where someone was trying to attack Lia Thomas. But instead put a picture of another Olympic swimmer, female Olympic swimmer Cisgender, female Olympic swimmer talking about masculinity of her body and the misgender that happened all within that, that one Tweet sort of sums up quite a bit of this. But I, but I, I want to throw it back to Gen with, with one thing because III I always try to find a sign of hope somewhere anywhere in all of this. And Governor Cox in Utah recently was uh one of the few Republican governors who has had the courage to stand up and veto a trans students in sports bill. And we've talked a little bit about the numbers and I thought the most powerful part of his letter was when he said it all came down to five numbers for him. And that was 75,000 high school kids participating in high school sports, four transgender kids playing high school sports in Utah, one transgender student playing girls sports. 86% of trans youth reporting suicidality and 56% of trans youth having attempted suicide. And for him, he was able to use those numbers which I think are very educational for people to hear and say this is what this whole issue is about. And we need to, if, if, if nothing else without him, if, if we don't understand it, we should at least err on the side of caring about the individuals who are involved in these issues. And so Gen, I, I do kind of want to throw it back over to you because it's such a toxic political environment. But do, do you see some signs of, of hope embedded somewhere there? 

Gennifer: Well, I think when you see, you know, a, a governor, as you mentioned, I think there is some hope and I do think that, you know, sometimes things really need to come to a head for people to get their heads on straight. And, and I think, you know, there are people out there, you know, like my organization look, I recognize that so much education is needed. So, you know, we're going right to corporations because most people spend a good deal. Of their life working. And if we can't get it through the politicians, we'll work with corporations and most corporations are open to at least diversity inclusion to talking about it and hopefully doing training as well. But I think, I think there is hope, I think right now, you know, we always have political swings in the United States and I think this will end up, you know, where I mentioned before about the genie coming out of the bottle. The reality for those folks who, who want to put up barriers or this is not going away. This is actually increasing. Gen Z is not like Doctor Gen. Doctor Gen was just happy with people liking me. Gen Z is direct about this. They have really high expectations of employment, universities and all of that and they're not gonna back down. Trust me, that's not going to happen. So at some point, there's going to have to be a give and take. And I would just say, I think you usually wins out so. 

John: Fantastic. Well, youth will run the world. We know that. So Gen, you know, you mentioned a little bit about your work with the, with the corporations and the like at Trans New York and that, you know, especially in response to kind of the climate. I know we've talked about before your work readiness program with some of the corporations, tell our listeners a little bit about what, what you're doing over there. 

Gennifer: Yeah, so it's thank you John. It's a wonderful program. We just started. We just, we're just about to complete our first six week cohort and in our cohort we have 18 people. Most of these folks are, are quite marginalized. 95% of the people who are in the cohort are black or brown folks. As I said, most of them are on some sort of public assistance. Some might have been uh sex workers at one time or strippers and we're trying to help them get into the workforce again, into mainstream society, workforce and get them into a job that feels like it's, it's a career. That's something that they would like to do to have a sense of that. You know, a lot of these folks don't have hope so. We do resume writing, we do interview preparation. Obviously, we're helping them with their mental health along the way because interviewing as a trans person is, is a difficult process. Some of these folks, they don't have their name changed documents, right? Maybe they can't afford to get their name changed. Maybe they don't know where to go to do that. They're also worried about their, their benefits that they're getting their Medicaid benefits. I just was on a call this morning with Northwell Health. They have a program and it turns out that there are programs where they won't lose their Medicaid benefits if they get a job. I never knew that. So we're, we're looking at all different avenues to help get folks ready to go into the workplace. But also we're working with corporations like Northwell Health, like TD Bank, like the visiting service of uh nursing service of New York to say, hey, you're looking for a diverse workforce, you have entry level positions and, and also, you know, this is just the beginning. So it's like a 1.0 but we are getting resumes from people, like a couple of people work in pharmaceutical companies or banking and they've been there, they came out now, they're frightened to go into another career. So we're trying to create a pipeline for organizations that we will be the go to company to come to if you're looking for a more diverse workforce. 

Alan: And, and I think that's so important, Gen, just because that sense of self identity, it, it, it has to go beyond, you know, someone who is trans. That's not all they are. This sense of self identity, of being a working professional of, of being a member, contributing member of society. I would think though, I certainly would defer to you that, that has to help to create that self-confidence in, in who that person is and, and their expression of that, that in the world. 

Gennifer: No, you're absolutely right. And, and that's what we, what we found. It's been such an interesting six weeks, you know, we're going on a six week next week. A lot of this really is about confidence in these folks. I mean, you know, I, I remember myself being frightened, they are so fearful about being outed or how do they act or, or for example, if they've had a criminal record, how did they go about talking about that or if they have some neurodiversity of mental health issues? How, how did they approach an employer about that? And we're, we're teaming up with people like Northwell and putting them over to, to those folks, to those professionals. So we're really creating a holistic program and it's, it's really exciting to me because I don't know if you noticed, but I'm white. So it's, I'm all about diversity. I think John, you and I talked about this diversity is a word. We all like to throw around and it's wonderful, but it's difficult in practice. It's difficult to get people together who haven't ever been together, who don't have a trust for one another. And I think this part of our community had a lack of trust of, of me, but we have a person who's on our board. She happens to be a person of color. She's a trans woman very in with the ballroom community. She was instrumental at getting these folks to come and I'm so pleased because it's a great start. We're gonna do four of these this year and I'm really confident that we'll end up with 80 to 100 people. And from the meeting I just had this morning, we're gonna be able to replace a lot of these people. So that's, that's next, getting them working. And you said, Alan, you know, getting that sort of sense of confidence to oneself and they should have an alternative to what you're doing right now, right? This is America for goodness sakes. 

John: And Gen, you mentioned that the, you know, working with the corporations and probably this is a topic for a whole another episode, but with, with the companies and the corporations that, you know, you're helping place some of these people in your cohort, what can companies do to be better prepared to accept these employees? 

Gennifer: Well, I, I think, you know, again, I, I think it really does. It, it all starts with education and I think companies really have to start investing in that because it doesn't, do you know what we're trying to avoid here is we don't wanna place one of our cohort attendees with an organization that has no sense of belonging. So there needs to be, you know, that plan otherwise, you know, it doesn't work for the corporation and it really doesn't work for our clients and, and we don't want that. So we're trying to work with companies. We already know who are very diverse and, and inclusive uh around LGBTQ issues or they're willing to do some training on those issues. Look, we're training Northwell Health, they're in the business of doing transgender gender affirming care. They have 60,000 employees. They recognize the, they've got a lot of people who are interacting, who, who really don't know trans and gender diverse individuals. They don't know how to, how to navigate with them. 

John: So, Gen, just uh with respect to Trans New York, what can our listeners do to support all your efforts? 

Gennifer: Well, you could always go on our website. We have a great donation page. You could become a monthly donor for as little as $25 a month. And you'll get a personal note from Gen. How about that? A personal note from Dr. Gen if you become a monthly member of Trans New York for as little as $25 a month and also corporations or individuals well, corporations really want to sponsor events or programs that we're doing. We're always open to speak to corporations about that as well. 

John: Fantastic. Well, I'd really encourage all our listeners to support Trans New York in any way you can because as you can tell from our um amazing episode today, there's so much work that they're doing. That's so so impactful for so many people. So thank you, Gen for, for joining us. Alan, do you have any final thoughts before we close? 

Alan: No, I just, I just want to say thank you to Gen for the work that you're doing. It is it is so important and it is changing lives and, and I'm proud, I'm proud to know you. 

Gennifer: Thank you, Alan. Thank you. Yes, it's, you know, it's, it's really this life change of mine has been fantastic. You know, when you were able to help people, you know, you just realize uh John, you and I talked about this. It's not about earning a salary anymore. It's about impacting somebody's life and making a change and there is no better feeling than that. 

John: Absolutely. Thank you, Gen for coming in. We really, really appreciate you. 

Gennifer: You're welcome. 

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producer is Ali McCardell. This podcast is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, Stitcher, PodBean and reedsmith.com. 

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers. 

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