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Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast, Career Footprints. In each episode of Career Footprints, we'll ask our guest, a Reed Smith alum, to share their career story, how their time at Reed Smith set them up for success, and their advice for early career lawyers. Our goal is to surface insights from the careers of these inspiring professionals that will help you find professional success, however you define that. 

Lauren: Greetings, and welcome to another episode of Reed Smith's alumni Career Footprints podcast. This is your host, Lauren Hakala, and I'm Reed Smith's Global Director of Learning and Development. Today, I'm excited to be speaking with Reed Smith alum, Jamie Welborn Knauer. Jamie currently serves as senior counsel, Product and Regulatory at DoorDash, based in San Francisco. Jamie joined DoorDash from Reed Smith's San Francisco office, where he practiced for about four years as an associate in our Global Commercial Disputes group. Jamie, welcome. How are you today? 

Jamie: Doing great. How are you? 

Lauren: Awesome. Excited for this conversation. So let's jump in because there's a lot to cover. So I'd like to just start by asking you a little bit about what you currently do at DoorDash. 

Jamie: Yeah, so I'm what's called a product counsel. It is a role that is very specific to tech companies. Essentially, what it is, is I work with product teams. So with the business, with software engineers, with product managers, it's a highly cross-functional role. And I get to have the fun of building the products that you interact with and millions of people interact with on a daily basis. Ensuring regulatory compliance, making sure everything is crystal clear to the consumer, marketing, you know, the Dasher side as well, ensuring that the delivery is safe and compliant and the best possible product we can provide. So it's a lot of fun. 

Lauren: That sounds fun. And a product that pretty much all of our listeners will be familiar with. But what's the best part of it, like being in-house at a company like that? 

Jamie: I would say no two days are the same. I really like being in a dynamic role. I will never be bored in this job, which is probably one of the best things about it. I get to cover a pretty wide swath of areas too. So I cover, I'm on the new verticals team, which is essentially fancy tech jargon for all of our newer business lines that are non-restaurant. So grocery delivery, pharmacy, alcohol, all of those are new verticals. And I specifically get to cover retail, so everything from Sephora to Best Buy to Home Depot to PetSmart. I cover our whole convenience business, so that's pharmacies and convenience stores, as well as everything health-related, including prescription delivery. And I also get to cover SNAP, which is Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program. It's a government benefit, food benefit for low-income individuals and families. And it's a way that folks can order groceries on our platform using their benefits. So you can tell even from just my description of my job, all of those things are very different, which makes it a lot of fun. So that's one. And then I think the second thing is I like that I get to build. You know, I feel like I am aligned with the mission of the company in the sense that I'm working to help it succeed as opposed to more of the litigation past I was in where I'm trying to resolve disputes. You know, it's a lot more proactive rather than reactive, which is exciting. And yeah, I like contributing to the success of the company. That really is invigorating. 

Lauren: Yeah, that sounds really rewarding to be building new product lines with the business people. 

Jamie: Yeah, absolutely. 

Lauren: Okay, so I want to rewind and just figure out how you've gotten to such an engaging role. So let's go all the way back to college and you're deciding to go to law school. So I see that you majored in poli-sci undergrad at USC. And I'm wondering, did you always know that you wanted to be a lawyer? Was that the plan or did that kind of come in time? 

Jamie: Yeah. So no is the short answer. I always had an inkling that law might be for me, but I wasn't sure. So when I went to college, I was actually in journalism and communication school at first because I figured being a good writer would help me no matter what field I chose. Those courses did not appeal to me. And I ended up taking a constitutional law class in undergrad that was actually taught by a law school professor in the style of a law school class. So we actually read court opinions. Our tests were just like law school, issue spotting. And it was all the like sexy con law stuff that, you know, is in the news. Freedom of speech issues and equal protection. And I was totally drawn to it. I had a great professor too, but that really solidified for me that this was something I was passionate about. And I switched my major to poli-sci, loved those classes. I got to take everything from the more political side to legal classes to also philosophy, which was really kind of neat to think about how societies are built and our norms and. It just really aligned with, I think, my natural way of thinking. I think I am a critical thinker by nature. And so I think I realized there was alignment in the legal field and how lawyers have to work with kind of my natural way of looking at the world and approaching problems. 

Lauren: That's really interesting because I feel like I talked to so many people who, when they got to law school, the way law school is taught was so alienating to them. And they really felt almost kind of traumatized by it. But it sounds like I felt the same way I loved law school and that, you know, the approach to problem solving really kind of drew you in. 

Jamie: Yeah, I loved law school. And I, you know, it was like, it felt like a lot of work at the time. But now when you're in a 40 plus hour a week job, it seems like a joke that we thought that was hard. But it was, I mean, I went to UC Davis also, which was a very collegial environment. I think not everybody has that in law school, but that was really a lovely place to be. And I actually miss, we had so many lunchtime talks with professors, like opining about things going on in the news and the Supreme Court and, It was cool to have that at my fingertips and people who are really engaged with, you know, significant happenings in the world and having a forum to just hear her perspectives and also have like, you know, brown bag discussions. I miss that. Like some of the things going on today, I wonder what some of my professors would say and would love to have those conversations. So, yeah, there was never a point where I questioned what I was doing. I think before I decided to go to law school, a lot of people tried to talk me out of it because of the debt, you know, possibilities. And I'm very glad I didn't listen to them. 

Lauren: Well, so it sounds like you had a great experience at Davis for law school. And then you came to Reed Smith. So can you talk about how you decided to go from law school? And it sounds like a very kind of like academic, calm, law-focused thing to being a big law litigator. 

Jamie: Yeah, I had no idea what I wanted to do when I went to law school. And listeners will probably know this term, but we had something called OCI, which stands for on-campus interviewing, where law firms and regulatory agencies and other organizations, nonprofits to come to campus and actually interview Davis law students. And this is common at schools across the country. And I and a lot of big law firms come every year and I wasn't even going to put my hat in the ring I just had heard horror stories about like selling your soul and having no free time and it just being pretty miserable and I'm very grateful for a classmate who said don't limit yourself just throw your hat in the ring and you don't have to say yes and just see what you think. And that was a passing comment that changed my life because it was really good advice. And so I applied and you really get a sense interviewing of the personality of a law firm. I think if law firm, some of the law firms who I interviewed with, whoever decided to send those lawyers should be re-evaluated because they, as the face of the law firm, made me certain I didn't want to work there. And the reverse was true. I had interviews where I just got a really good feel. Reed Smith was one of those firms in fact I actually had a really positive impression of Reed Smith going in because Reed Smith had come to Davis and done a lunchtime talk and I’ll give a shout out to Jessica Sisco who's the recruiter and SF for a long time. She is one of a kind so charismatic and charming and she led like a myth busters panel with a few a current Reed Smith attorney is, and it was funny and relaxed, and everybody seemed to genuinely be happy. These things sound obvious, but they are appealing, especially for folks who've heard horror stories about big law. And so, yeah, I remember interviewing at Reed Smith. I loved the people I met, and I chose it because of the feel. 

Lauren: No, and you are so smart. I mean, I feel like a lot of law students going into the interview process might lose sight of the fact that you're interviewing them too, right? Like you are being interviewed and you need to take that aspect of it seriously. But I think that you getting to know the people, seeing how they related to each other. And it sounds like having a professional staff person too, who was, you know, really owning the process and bringing the best of the firm to you showed how much kind of the firm cared about getting the people. 

Jamie: I have a vivid memory of walking into a partner's office, not a Reed Smith, at another firm while I was in a final round interview. And they were writing emails while I was talking to them, like totally not paying attention to me. Just so rude. And it's like, if this is the type of people you guys want and want to be the face of your firm, then great somebody else can work here I'm out so I definitely got the reverse with Reed Smith people who just genuinely wanted to learn about me went to my interest line on my resume and asked me about like improv comedy which I had down there and just wanted to get to know me as a person instead of you know seeing it as something they had to get through so that was really refreshing. 

Lauren: Yeah good tip for interviewers too then you know some of the best law students are really taking note of how much you're engaging with them as a person and giving them your undivided attention during the interview. All right. So you were very thoughtful about choosing a law firm. And I'm curious that once you landed at Reed Smith, first couple of years, was it what you expected? What did you think? 

Jamie: That's a good question. I'd probably say no, it wasn't what I expected. I think the biggest surprise that I wish somebody had told me was, you're kind of an independent contractor as an associate. I think I had an impression that I would show up and there would be work that needed to be done and somebody would put the work on my desk and I would do the work. And instead, the first few months were like almost like business development within the firm of having to go to a million lunches and have people get to know me and talk about their practice areas and actively seek out work which I mean thankfully I'm an extrovert so it was less difficult for me But I remember feeling empathy for some of the more introverted peers of mine who, it's a challenge, you know, especially when you're at a law school, you don't feel like you know anything that you're trying to sell yourself. Like, that's tough. 

Lauren: It is. But I'm obliged to say that there are ways to build business as an introvert, but it looks different, right? 

Jamie: Yeah, I'm sure that's true because obviously the law firms are not just filled with extroverts, but it was kind of exhausting. 

Lauren: Even for an extrovert. 

Jamie: Yeah, even for me. And you have an hours requirement and you're trying to do a good job and there's pressure there. So I think that was a surprise. 

Lauren: Yeah. Thank you for saying that. I think that a lot of people, especially when you are a top law student, you've been going to class, doing what's expected, getting A's, and there can be a tendency to think it'll be more of the same at the law firm. But you do have to be entrepreneurial and find the work that you want to do. Even if there's a ton of work coming at you, you still need to be strategic. 

Jamie: Right and you don't even know what exists so a lot of the exercise is figuring out what kind of work exists in that office because you know there there may not be people practicing your interest first choice interest area in that office they may be in DC or New York and so you you are already kind of limited initially and just figuring out like what the heck does this kind of work look like? Or what does it mean? Am I going to like it? Do I want to sell myself to this person and get involved in this work? You know? So it was a lot of like feeling around in the dark is kind of how it felt. 

Lauren: Yeah. And you were, so you were in our global commercial disputes group, which is one of our largest groups. And I'm curious to know how you approach that. There are so many different practices within that practice group. Did you specialize immediately or did you do a variety of work and how did that work out? 

Jamie: Yeah. So I never specialized ever in my four years and that was intentional. And I will say actually going back to a prior question about why Reed Smith, some of the firms that I interviewed with wanted to know a practice area choice, which is so unrealistic. In law school, you're exposed to a tiny percentage of subject matter. And so to know what I wanted to do is just so unrealistic coming out of law school. And I remember when I interviewed at Reed Smith, there was there was talk about rotating and trying different things. And that really appealed to me. So I joined the global commercial disputes team, because I could kind of be a free agent in that group. The other groups were more specialized. disputes is a very broad category. You can have disputes in dozens of practice areas. And so I really intentionally did not put all my eggs in one basket and did healthcare work, environmental work, general commercial business disputes. I really tried everything to see what I was interested in and also to see who I liked working with. Somebody also told me my first year, it's better to work with your first choice people and maybe your second or third choice practice area than your first choice practice area and your third, fourth choice people, which is so true. You're spending your whole day around these folks and the people issues are what makes or breaks the experience. So I, you know, I basically shopped around and found people I liked and subject matter I liked and I gravitated towards those folks. 

Lauren: Yeah. And it sounds like given your current role being so broad in terms of areas of law, that was a good decision to prepare you for it. 

Jamie: Yeah. And, you know, I think the first four years at Reed Smith, what I really learned were my kind of core lawyering skills. I focused on being a good writer, you know, kind of persuasion and again, the like issue spotting, critical thinking aspects of the work. And when I joined DoorDash, it was known that I was going to have a healthcare focus. And I'd done a bunch of healthcare regulatory work at Reed Smith, but I am by no means an expert in that area. There are a lot of people who know a lot more than me. And so I think the core skills, honing those was the best decision I made because it set me up for success in my current role. Like, anybody can learn any subject matter. It's all learnable. But the core skills are what you need. And those are what's really transferable, I would say, job to job. 

Lauren: Yeah, and finding it sounds like you found people who you really kind of vibed with and invest, they invested in you and helped you to learn those skills, right? Because that's really the only way to learn these things is by doing it. 

Jamie: Yeah I should give a shout out actually to Phillip Babich. I did a lot of work with him but he more than anyone took the time to really review and critique my writing. And i would it was terrifying at first it looked like a bloodbath on the page which is scary when you're new and you just want to impress people and get a pat on the back but it improved my writing substantially. And I, and him just taking the time to do that, I now know as a more senior attorney, you know, we have summer interns at DoorDash and I have been, supervised a number of them and worked with them and I now know taking the time to really sit with writing and provide fulsome feedback is not a small task and it's something that requires a lot of thought and I try to remember how impactful it was for me to receive that and realize it's worth the time to give and that it really is going to change somebody's skill set and make a difference and I try to remember that now when I'm working with law students because it just takes one person to really A: change your impression about a place but B: help you improve. And I and I so I think my writing improved also tremendously and through working with him so I'm grateful for that. 

Lauren: Awesome. Yeah, no. And thank you for pointing out that getting a heavy markup from a senior lawyer, it could be jarring that that is really that person investing in you and maybe making like a core difference in your career success. It's an important point. And I think it can be tough, especially if you're someone used to getting straight A's, right? 

Jamie: Totally. And it takes perspective and time to understand that feedback is a gift. You want to just do a good job, but getting a pat on the back, you're never going to learn anything. And getting a heavily redlined brief or memo doesn't mean you're an idiot and doesn't mean you did a bad job. It just means this could be that much better. And I still sometimes struggle with that. I mean, it takes a lot of self-security to feel comfortable getting a lot of constructive criticism, but it's also hugely beneficial if you are open to it. 

Lauren: All right. So I want to make sure that we have time to talk about how you landed at your current role. So tell us about when you decided that you wanted to move in-house and how you approached that. 

Jamie: Yeah. So I did mostly litigation at Reed Smith. And there were things that I really liked about it. I liked arguing in court. I liked the kind of persuasive reasoning side. And there were other things that I really soured on and just the adversarial nature of it. And so I'd always kind of thought I wanted to go in-house. The appeal of working for one company and really helping that company succeed was super appealing to me so I just started looking and it was a long process. It took me probably a year when I started looking and I had actually had I had actually applied for a role at DoorDash 10 months prior to my job posting coming out and they wanted somebody with five to seven years experience. I had only three at the time but I had an informational interview with who's now the director of our entire team and again she took the time to sit with me and talk with me and get to know me and she didn't owe me a thing and she at the end said if you ever need anything or if I can be more helpful like please let me know. And that went such a long way. I was like, I want to work for you. I'll do whatever it takes. So, you know, then I had a number of interviews and job apps. And then my role posting came up and I just shot her an email, hoping she remembered me 10 months later and said, hey, I was thinking about throwing my hat in the ring for this. What do you think? And she actually said, I was actually just going to reach out to you. And here I am almost four years later you know loving my job in a great place work I worked she was my direct manager for two or three years and has now ascended higher in the org but it you know, again it was it was the people and the vibe that brought me to the place and it has not steered me wrong thus far. You like, don't discount your instincts and your gut feeling because it is it has proven to be true for me. And maybe I'm just fortunate. But it's been, yeah, worked out. 

Lauren: That's awesome. And also good for you applying for a job you were interested in, even though you didn't like tick every box on on the job description, because I imagine many people would have just said, no way. And then this whole relationship with your your eventual manager wouldn't have even started. 

Jamie: Right, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So it took a lot of patience and a lot of conversations and but it you know it worked out in the end thankfully. 

Lauren: All right. So you we've talked a lot about you kind of making your way through your career based on like personal relationships, the sense you get about the people and how important people are to your experience, whether it's in law school or in-house or at a law firm. So I want to just ask you a question in your capacity as an in-house counsel who is hiring a lot of lawyers and knowing that you're very astute around these interpersonal relationships. What can law firms do to kind of stay top of mind with you as a client? 

Jamie: It's an interesting question again you you kind of nailed it on the head of, the people side i'll start by saying what not to do which is, don't treat me as a business opportunity instead of treating me as a person, is what I would say. And I you know and I’ve had people reach out who I didn't really have a relationship with who are pitching me business. And it just feels, look, I know that this is a client-based industry. Their business development is a huge part of it. But it's just, at least for me personally, not effective when I feel like I'm just being seen as like a dollar sign business opportunity. What I would say to do is I actually did, I hired Reed Smith and I used them for some healthcare regular story work. And it was the people I worked with who I knew, knew their stuff were good people were diligent, thoughtful, who had a proven track record with me already. And who also treated me well while I worked there, you know, like you can't just come to the ball game when it's business development time. And win me over kind of a thing. Like the proof is in the pudding. And so the folks I work with at Reed Smith. I don't feel like they're just seeing me as an opportunity. They have expertise in the areas I'm looking for. I know I can depend on them because I've seen their working style. One of the things I really look for in outside counsel is responsiveness. It sounds so basic, but I hate having to follow up with my outside counsel and not knowing whether they're on it or when I can expect something. And so the folks I work with in the healthcare practice at Reed Smith are super communicative. I never have those questions. And if a deadline comes and goes and they need more time, I'm getting very proactive communications about it, which is huge for me, honestly. So yeah, I would say just a lot of it is the people skills. there's expertise in a lot of places and so that's how you differentiate yourself is are you communicative? Are you on top of things? Are you treating me in a way that I want to be treated and maybe proactively thinking about other things we could use if we want, you know, proactively thinking about where our business is headed and coming up with ideas or areas that you, you know, think we might want to take a closer look at those are appealing. 

Lauren: Yeah. No, I hear, again, I know this is simplifying what you just said so eloquently, but thinking about you as a person, right, who needs to know that the lawyer is working on it, who wants to feel that their lawyer is thinking from their perspective and what's going to be coming up for them in the next few months, years, et cetera. 

Jamie: Yeah. And asking a lot of questions, I would say. I think sometimes with new business, new attorneys want to prove themselves as experts in the area. And so they want to just opine or analyze before they really have the full picture and are maybe loathe to ask questions because I don't know why. But I think the more questions someone asks, the more engaged they are, the better the work is going to be because they're going to more understand our business and our product and what the ask is. And so really taking the time to obtain a foundational understanding of what's our business model, where do we want to go? It also just saves time in the long run, but it's a signal to me that they are approaching this in the right way. 

Lauren: Oh, well, well, Jamie, thank you so much. I feel like that is a great note to close on with that word of wisdom for how, you know, even junior lawyers can start to impress you and how they should be thinking about it. So thank you so much for being with us today. 

Jamie: Thank you. It was fun. 

Lauren: Yeah, thank you all for listening to this episode of Reed Smith's Career Footprints podcast. We really hope you'll join us in a future episode. Thank you. 

Outro: Career Footprints is a Reed Smith production. Our producers are Ali McCardell and Shannon Ryan. You can find our podcasts on podcast streaming platforms, reedsmith.com and our social media accounts at Reed Smith LLP. To learn more about Reed Smith's alumni network, or if you are an alum of the firm who wants to share your career story, contact Laura Karmatz, Reed Smith's global senior director of alumni relations at alumni@reedsmith.com. 

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers. 

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