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Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast, Career Footprints. In each episode of Career Footprints, we'll ask our guest, a Reed Smith alum, to share their career story, how their time at Reed Smith set them up for success, and their advice for early career lawyers. Our goal is to surface insights from the careers of these inspiring professionals that will help you find professional success, however you define that. 

Lauren: Greetings, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Reed Smith's Alumni Career Footprints podcast. This is your host, Lauren Hakala, Reed Smith's Global Director of Learning and Development. Today, I'm excited to be speaking with Reed Smith alum Zoe Bucknell. Based in London, Zoe is the CEO and co-founder of Kuberno, an innovative corporate governance technology solutions company that serves global enterprises. Earlier in her career, Zoe was a solicitor focused on aviation insurance at Reed Smith and at one of our predecessor firms in London, Warner Cranston. Zoe, welcome. How are you today? 

Zoe: Hi, Lauren. I'm very well, thank you, and delighted to be here on your podcast. 

Lauren: Awesome. Ready to get started? 

Zoe: Absolutely, yes. 

Lauren: Okay, so I want to start out by talking about your company, Kuberno. So you co-founded the company about six years ago. And since then, it has grown very quickly. Based on your website, it looks like your product launched in 2021, you completed your Series A round in 2023, and recently you've experienced rapid growth and even expanded into the U.S. So tell us a little bit about your product. 

Zoe: So, we are a legal entity management platform. Essentially, we help large, complex organizations manage their subsidiaries and other legal structures globally, creating a single source of truth around all of the data points that surround those entities. So, helping organizations, not just with their compliance, which tends to be the more traditional focus of legal entity management systems. But we also broaden out the use case into tax functions, treasury functions, HR functions, anywhere really where information and insights track back to a legal entity. 

Lauren: So you are obviously a lawyer by training and by most of your professional background, but now you're a CEO. So I'm curious, how do you spend most of your days? 

Zoe: Oh I wish there was a single type of day I think probably the best way to summarize it up is that when I wake up in the morning, I have very little idea other than obviously scheduled meetings about how my day's going to pan out and I must admit it's that variety that I love so I could be doing anything as prosaic as signing off on the latest merchandising for a conference we've got coming up, like whether I like the color of the pens or the font they've used, right up to trying to plan our strategy for the next three years, really getting into the financial detail. It really covers an incredibly broad range of topics, managing our stakeholders. Liaising with our investors, with our key customers, other partners, everything. And that's what I absolutely love about the role. 

Lauren: So it sounds like you're just contributing using like every part of your brain and working on every aspect of the operations. So you worked, but for most of your career, you were in legal roles as a law firm associate, which we'll talk about in a minute, then a GC and a corporate secretary. So could you just give us like the short version of how those roles led to the to the idea of Kuberno and the product? 

Zoe: Absolutely. So as a lawyer, one of the foundational topics that you learn about is company law. So really the essence of what we do goes back to my law degree, even. But it was probably really when I got in-house that I really started understanding the nuances of entities and how they impacted across the business. Not just, I think, where quite a lot of lawyers might focus is on that corporate compliance side. So the annual filings, maybe direct appointments. From an M&A point of view obviously we'd be interested in the contracting parties and whether the signatories actually have authority to sign on behalf of that company but it was really when I got into my in-house legal career where I was working in companies that had multiple subsidiaries across multiple jurisdictions that I really realized where the pain point was and that the technology that was available at the time, to be honest with you, probably caused more problems than it solved. 

Lauren: Okay, so I want to go back to the beginning of your career, where it all started. And you actually didn't start your career as a lawyer. So tell us about your first professional role. 

Zoe: So while I did do a law degree, and obviously the legal or the university route is a bit different in the UK in that my undergraduate degree, my first degree was a law degree. If I'm honest, I came out of university in the early 90s, which was bang in the middle of a big recession. And there were very few training contracts available, which was the next step in the qualification route for an English lawyer. And so I managed to secure myself a graduate training role at Lloyd's of London, which is the large insurance market or the global insurance market, the global insurance market based in London. And I think actually looking back on it, that was an incredibly fortuitous step. It gave me a really rounded insight into business generally, but also how the insurance market and the Lloyd's insurance market worked. And that can be quite challenging to understand from the outside in. And then I became a business analyst. So I did the year as a graduate trainee, and then I became a business analyst. So given that maths hadn't been my strongest point at school, it was a very good way to actually brush up on my number skills, but also to really understand sort of finance in the context of business. And again, I think that stood me in really good stead going forwards as well. 

Lauren: That's so interesting, like that looking back, this economic kind of calamity actually led you directly to where you needed to be. I think that's important for people starting their career, you know, at times that can feel turbulent. 

Zoe: Yeah, it can. I made 250 applications to law firms at the time and not a single training contract. So it was, just for background, I went to a top university, not Oxford, Cambridge, just came out with a very good degree, was fluent in French. I sort of ticked all of the boxes. So it wasn't that there was a flaw, I suppose, in what I was presenting. It's just a sign of the times. There was a huge volume of people applying for not very many roles at the time. 

Lauren: Yeah, and it worked out, right? It's just not exactly the way you would have thought. 

Zoe: Yeah, absolutely. That's become a bit of a theme in my career, I think, is that sometimes it feels like something's not gone how I wanted it to go. Actually, it's taken me somewhere better. 

Lauren: Well, and that's actually a great segue into my next question for you. So eventually you qualified as a solicitor and you landed as an associate at Warner Cranston, which was a London-based law firm of about 60 lawyers that became a part of what was then primarily U.S. law firm, Reed Smith. So I'd like to hear about your time at the law firm. What kind of work did you do and what did you like and not like about being a law firm associate? it? 

Zoe: So I actually joined Warner Cranston when I qualified. I qualified at a law firm that specialized in aviation insurance, and that was primarily contentious work. But the training I most enjoyed was actually on the non-contentious side, the corporate side. So I joined Warner Cranston to work in their corporate insurance practice. So that was corporate and regulatory work for large insurance groups. And I've always loved transactional work. That's sort of been at the core. I identify as a corporate lawyer, I suppose, rather than a contentious lawyer. And still to this day, I love a good transaction. So I really enjoyed my time at Warner Cranston. It was quite a quirky business. If you think Ally McBeal, I don't know how many people will remember Ally McBeal, but it had a very similar vibe, very individualistic partners in a former warehouse building right on the River Thames. So I really enjoyed my time there. And I think about halfway through my time there, the merger happened. Obviously, this is some time ago now. It was 2001, I think, the merger happened. 

Lauren: Yeah. 

Zoe: And I remember when the U.S. partners came over to meet us for the first time. And there was definitely quite a cultural gulf, I think, between particularly a sort of more quirky boutique law firm like Warner Cranston and possibly a more polished, slightly larger law firm like Reed Smith. 

Lauren: I love that part of your biography. And I want to ask you more about that because as someone who heads up learning at a global law firm, I spent a lot of time thinking about the similarities and differences between U.S. and U.K. legal culture. And, you know, from the very beginning of your career being acquired by a U.S. Firm to now when you're expanding your own business into the U.S. plus everything in between. I wonder if you could share some observations about U.S. versus U.K. Culture when it comes to legal and business. 

Zoe: I mean, there's the old adage, isn't it, which is two countries separated by a common language. And I think that's something that it is always worth bearing in mind that while on the face of it we can communicate adequately in that there is fluency on both sides in the English language. There are strong nuances in phrasing, in what's considered polite or aggressive or rude even. An example is, I remember a top tip, and it definitely came from a US-based person about how to actually build relationships with the person you're talking to, is to keep using their name when you're talking to them. And yet, to someone who's very British like me, that actually comes across as patronizing and really quite irritating. So it's like little things like that that that can that can really start to create tensions in communication also another very vivid memory of that first visit of the the US partners to the uk law firm is that um and again i sort of reiterate Warner Cranston was boutique it was a little bit quirky i expect there might have been less of a sort of cultural chasm if it was within within sort of one of the magic circle or silver circle law firms where I have worked as well. But the partners would give someone a hug or pat someone on the back or the UK partners. And I remember the US partners were completely askance at this. We don't have any physical touching. We have an absolute no rule, no physical touching. Remember, this is very much prior to MeToo. This is a very very different world where actually it wasn't inappropriate. It wasn't inappropriate touching, it wasn't that someone was sort of foisting themselves on you or using their position of power you know in any kind of way. It was just a genuinely friendly environment and I remember that that sort of being a a big challenge again of its time the world has changed an awful lot in that last sort of 25 years or so. 

Lauren: Yeah, no, but I love the point that you made about these subtle differences, both between the U.S. And the U.K., but also just between two organizations, like a small one and a large one, and how big they can be and how you need to really be aware of them, because you can, you know, it makes a difference when you're thinking from the other person's perspective. 

Zoe: It really does. And actually, I've realized that most of them have given them sort of my perspective on the U.S. And maybe sort of things that trip up the U.S. people. But I think, reflectively, one of the things that I've had to learn is to overcome my British reticence to put myself forward, because that's not considered something you do in the U.K. And it can be a bit frowned upon, whereas actually, if you don't do it in the U.S., people think there's something wrong with you. So that's been, for me, an interesting change I've had to make in terms of my sort of communication style, particularly. 

Lauren: Absolutely. No, that is something that I've heard people say in the context of business development training globally, that that's where I feel like the cultural difference really comes up, at least in my role. 

Zoe: Yeah, yeah. And it's why we knew that when we, coming back to Kuberno, when we expanded into the US, we knew we had to have a U.S. team, boots on the ground, people that really understood our potential customers and knew how to connect with them. 

Lauren: All right. Well, I definitely want to come back to that. But I want to ask you a question about another really interesting part of your resume. So after you practiced at Reed Smith and another large firm, you landed your first GC role while you were still in your 20s. So tell us about how you did it. 

Zoe: So this goes right back to that first step out of university. So the reason I was able to secure that first GC role, and it was a sole in-house counsel role at the start, but it was within a Lloyd's insurance company. And they were really looking for someone who knew the Lloyd's insurance market but still had the the legal skill set that actually spanned both contentious and non-contentious from an insurance context and therefore because I'd spent that time as a graduate trainee and business analyst at Lloyd's of London and then because I'd done a training in a primarily non- sorry primarily contentious firm. And then I'd done two and a half years in a primarily non-contentious and regulatory environment, despite being possibly less qualified in terms of years than they were looking for. I was the only person that had a fairly unique blend of skills that actually fitted exactly what they were looking for. And I still feel slightly bad about it to this day. And I don't know who it was, but they were about to offer someone else when I was a late entrance into the process and managed to secure the role. 

Lauren: That's amazing. You must be good at interviews too. So I want to kind of continue with how you've handled tricky situations, which I'm sure you've had a lot of. You've held a number of senior governance roles at large companies. And as someone who myself has come into organizations at a senior level, it can be, you know, quite a dance to integrate yourself and learn and start adding value. So what tips do you have or what lessons have you learned about assuming a senior role? 

Zoe: So I think for me and here comes a soccer quotation it's always been a game of two halves I don't think that translates into American football because I think there's lots of different periods and I get quite confused about the rules to be honest with you. 

Lauren: I'm still impressed that you said soccer instead of football. 

Zoe: There's that cultural nuance. So where where I've done well in my career is I can assimilate a large amount of data very quickly. I can see patterns, I can solve problems, I can build processes, I can build teams, high-performing teams. The place I've struggled is actually managing art. I'm building those relationships with people who are hierarchically senior to me. So, for instance, primarily sort of board directors and non-executive directors. And that's been something I have always struggled with. And I'm now trying to be a bit more open about just to help people maybe navigate things the way I was never able to navigate them. And part of that possibly goes back to having become a GC at such an early stage. In that I didn't have role models that I could watch and learn from in terms of how they navigated those relationships. So I think I possibly took that feeling of always being young or being more junior into those interactions, and that comes across as being guarded, I think. And that's possibly why I wasn't able to build those connections as effectively as I possibly would have done. It wasn't across the board. There is one chairman who told me that I was the best company secretary, corporate secretary he'd ever worked with, which I'll take that and that is in my pocket and have that with me for life. But, you know, there were others where I struggled to build those relationships. 

Lauren: With that experience, what are a couple of tips for managing up and building relationships with very senior people? 

Zoe: I think I actually remember they're human. They're human. They're going to have a broad range of interests outside of work. And I think if you can find one point of connection with them, that's all you need to sort of establish that human level relationship. Also decide you know understand what their what their key drivers are and and try not to annoy them because they're busy people and sometimes their key drivers and the things that they want to focus on and they prioritize might not feel like the things that you want to prioritize but actually they're your key stakeholder and you need to deliver. To them or be able to articulate why maybe there's another priority that needs to take precedence over what they feel is their priority at the time. 

Lauren: That's such good advice. And some of the masters of this are of managing up to exactly what you said. And, you know, coming back to our earlier conversation, I think it goes to just trying to see it from the other person's perspective, even when that person seems so, you know, powerful and remote from you, they are still a person. 

Zoe: Yeah, yeah. and might have surprisingly normal interests outside of being an incredibly powerful person in a very large organization. 

Lauren: Absolutely. Well, thank you for that. Okay, so I want to, you are a CEO, and we'd be remiss not to ask you explicitly about leadership. So one of the things that I also think about a lot is how, as lawyers, we tend to struggle a lot with the topic of leadership, which is, I think, because a lot of the things that make us good lawyers, like perfectionism and always thinking about what could go wrong, are the same things that can make us very difficult bosses. So as someone who has been a lawyer, now a CEO, what have you learned about leading others? 

Zoe: I don't think I've actually ever fallen into the traditional stereotype of a lawyer. And that's possibly why I felt much more aligned to an in-house career than a private practice career in that my focus has been more on problem solving, getting to sort of an effective solution rather than that sort of detailed perfectionism, which is incredibly important. Particularly in things like commercial contracts or this Asian process management that didn't, you know, I would rely on my outside counsel to support me in that aspect. So leadership, I could talk for hours on leadership, mainly in all the amazing things that I've learned and my ideas about it, not that I think I'm necessarily the perfect person to ask, Maybe that is the perfect person to ask someone who understands the mistakes they've made. But I've always really struggled with enforced hierarchy. Might be to do with my mild neurodiversity, I don't know. But even from school, I struggled with it. Possibly doesn't set me up for a perfect career in law because I think law firms particularly are still incredibly hierarchical. But I think taking that into leadership, and again, I would never expect someone to trust or respect me just because of my role or my title. I don't think you can demand that. I think you have to earn it. And I think part of the way of earning it is creating that quid pro quo that I will trust you and I will empower you to do the best you can do in your job. But that means I'm not going to be over your shoulder every minute. I'm not going to be micromanaging you. If you make a mistake once, I will support you on the learning journey around that mistake. But be clear if you make it again we will be having conversations and if you make it a third time it's probably terminal because I want people to feel people that work with me to feel that I trust them and that I respect them and I respect what they are bringing to to whatever it is we're. As a lawyer, you can want to feel like you are the expert in the room. And I think maybe letting go of that is really important in building authentic leadership because people need to trust you, yes. They need to respect you, yes. But they also need to trust that you are going to enable them to do their best work as well and not just use them to sort of mop up the bits maybe that you don't want to do. It's a bit of a rambling answer. 

Lauren: Yeah, I know. But I love the point that you made and then elaborated on about how you saw these qualities in yourself starting from school, starting from as an associate. And they're actually one of the things that makes you someone who could transition so successfully from law to business, right? Letting go of perfectionism in order to empower a team. I would imagine that's pretty important as a CEO. 

Zoe: Yes, yes, it is. And I think as a business, you end up having these sayings that get sort of trotted out. And one of them is like, don't let perfect get in the way of good. Because when you're running fast as a business, if you're always striving to perfection, if you don't move forward until one bit is perfect, you will never go. 

Lauren: So I know that I have to let you go soon, but last question, kind of coming back to where we started with Kuberno and your business, what are a couple of things that you do to manage yourself that makes you a great CEO and someone that people want to work for? 

Zoe: One of the things I have sort of taken into the business is and this might be where there's a bit of a chasm between the US and the UK in terms of business practices, is that I do really believe that people need to take time away from the business to recharge. And therefore, that translates into an uncapped holiday policy. And in fact, we have a minimum holiday policy. So we expect people to take at least 22 days a year outside of national holidays and we expect them to split that across their year and we do that as part of a kind of a well-being drive because we run so fast as a business if people break down you know that's not good for them it's not good for the business it's not completely altruistic it's you know it is something that's really important when you're a fast-moving business that your people are able to keep going at that pace and that means taking breaks so that is the one thing that I do do is I make sure I take time out for my family and myself throughout the year. Innate traits, I can be incredibly impatient, really impatient. So if people don't get things quickly or people don't deliver things quickly, I can get quite grumpy. And I've had to work very hard on myself to manage that because I need to understand actually is the reason the person's not getting it because I'm not able to communicate it clearly enough. I always think if you can't communicate something complex clearly, you don't understand it well enough. So sometimes I'll sort of reflect back on myself and think, actually, have I understood what I'm really asking? And then secondly, in terms of being impatient around things being delivered, I mean, I remember from my in-house days and my private practice days that when people just keep asking you for things and they forget they've asked you for 10 other things and suddenly they're asking you for another thing that's super important and you're thinking but I've got this other 10 things that I've got to do and actually which do I prioritize so I will tend to sort of go back to people and say we agreed a time scale on this did you agree that because it's me and I've pressed you for it, and did you understand actually all the other things that you had to do at the time so try and sort of help people push back a little bit and manage their times and help me remember all the things I've asked them to do potentially as well. Don't get me wrong, there are sadly certain circumstances where people just aren't cut out for the speed at which a startup has to work and they'd be more comfortable in a different environment and then we have the conversation around that which is never fun but needs to be done. 

Lauren: Well, Zoe, it's been so interesting to hear about your transition from lawyer to businessperson and all the thinking you've done around that. So thank you so much for being with us and sharing your story. 

Zoe: It's my absolute pleasure. Thank you very much for having me. 

Lauren: And thank you all so much for listening to this episode of Career Footprints. We hope that you'll join us again for another career conversation with a Reed Smith alum. Thanks, everyone. 

Outro: Career Footprints is a Reed Smith Production. Our producers are Ali McCardell and Shannon Ryan. You can find our podcast on podcast streaming platforms, reedsmith.com and our social media accounts at Reed Smith LLP. To learn more about Reed Smith's alumni network, or if you are an alum of the firm who wants to share your career story, contact Laura Karmatz, Reed Smith's global senior director of alumni relations at alumni@reedsmith.com. 

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers. 

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