Transcript:

Intro: Hello and welcome to Arbitral Insights, a podcast series brought to you by our International Arbitration Practice lawyers here at Reed Smith. I'm Peter Rosher, global head of Reed Smith's International Arbitration Practice. I hope you enjoy the industry commentary, insights and anecdotes we share with you in the course of this series, wherever in the world you are. If you have any questions about any of the topics discussed, please do contact our speakers and with that, let's get started.

Gautam: Hello, everyone and welcome back to our Arbitral Insights podcast series. And I'm delighted today to have as our guest on this episode Hasit Seth. Hi, Hasit.

Hasit: Hi Gautam.

Gautam: It's really nice to have you on. I'm really excited about our conversation. Hasit is uh a, an Indian lawyer based in the wonderful city of Mumbai. He's also a part from being an independent counsel, he's an arbitrator and mediator and he's a fellow of the Chartered Institute of Arbitration. He has a very interesting academic background which in many ways instructs his practice because he a part from having a commercial practice, also has a technical specialism in a number of areas in the law. He has a Bachelor of Science in Computer Science and two master's degrees as well as an LLB. He has studied in the U.S. as well as in India. And apart from being an incredibly talented Council, he's one of this new generation that I really love these new arbitrators who are coming in, breaking the mold and gaining real profile. And I mentioned in my introduction that a part from his commercial practice, Hasit has a technical, a technology side to his practice, which emanates from the fact that one of his master's degrees was in intellectual property. So he has a broad range of talents. And I'm very excited to speak to you Hasit. And apart from being an arbitrator in India, I will just say that Hasit is also empaneled as an arbitrator in many other arbitral institutions regionally and in the Middle East. And I've got no doubt that his name is one to watch in the world of sitting arbitrators. So once again, a very warm welcome to you, Hasit.

Hasit: Thank you very much Gautam. And I really appreciate uh Reed Smith's this series of podcasts, Arbitral Insights because I got to know of many people through your podcast who I would not have come across. People from West Indies, people doing mediation and many other names. So it's really exciting.

Gautam: That's very, very kind of you to say. And uh it, it's a real privilege to have you on the series. Let me uh start with what drew you to law as a career in the first place Hasit?

Hasit: Yes. So, uh I, I have seen you, heard you asking this question on many podcasts I mean So uh let me, let me start with the wrong answer. So my wrong answer is that my dad was a lawyer and a judge and that made me do law. But that's the wrong answer, because, he himself was a nuclear scientist and then turned to law. I mean, so it wasn't traditional for him. And it's also not traditional for me because I was destined to be a programmer. I enjoyed computer science and I was a professional programmer. What I heard from him is that law is a very interesting subject to study as a mental discipline. I mean, so I did law for that and he was very open that you don't need to practice law. You can do other things in life after a law degree. But uh what, what fascinated me and brought me to law as a choice is that in computer science, we have very definite determinate answers in any branch of science. It's very perfect in that sense. While in social sciences, of which law forms a branch, there's so many right answers and so many wrong answers. I mean, and different interpretations of the same thing. I think after, you know, like, say around 400 years of common law, we should figure out what is an offer and an acceptance. But yet, you know, it gets reinterpreted after some years all the time. So that's what fascinated me and brought me to law.

Gautam: Well, and that's incredible. I mean, uh you know, it's not often, I hear of a nuclear scientist turned lawyer, turned judge. And I can see that the genes on both the science and the law certainly flowed over to you. Hasit. So, in terms of your career to date, who have been your greatest and biggest career mentors and inspiration.

Hasit: So I'll, I'll start with uh a little broader slate. I've always admired a Maverick scientist, Richard Feynman, Richard P. Feynman, a Nobel Prize winner and a physicist who worked on the bomb. I mean, uh and many other things. So his life has always inspired me in a big way. In computer science. There is a Stanford professor, retired, Donald Knuth and Donald Knuth has written a legendary set of books. But so, I mean, these are artists in their own way. Then my immediate inspiration uh in law and somebody who taught me a lot of things was uh Mr Greg Stobbs. He was a partner at Harness IP where I worked in Detroit for three years and he taught me like patent prosecution and patent litigation. So these have been my inspirations. But uh one of the early inspirations was an old book that I bought called Six Great Advocates. So these were all English advocates. Edward Marshall Hall and others. I mean, so they were small biographies of six great advocates. And I was just fascinated by all that. So I think trial lawyers everywhere, you know, like uh are an inspiration and my dad was a big trial lawyer. I mean, so uh these have been inspirations, but I find the adversarial process fundamentally fascinating and that's what inspires me all the time.

Gautam: Thank you. And you know, it is very interesting, you know, when you say that, that we draw mentors and inspirations from a broad range of fields and experiences and you know what you've said, really resonates with me and indeed many of the other guests on this series have said exactly the same thing. So it's really interesting when we draw these common threads together. Um No, thank you for sharing your thoughts there. Well, you know, one of the things I mentioned I Hasit in the introduction is that you have a very broad arbitration practice amongst other areas, but you, arbitration is one of your core fields. And I'm also very proud of your increasing profile as an arbitrator. And the fact that you're getting the due recognition with a number of institutions that you deserve because I love to see new people, new arbitrators breaking through the system. But let's just row it back and we'll come back to what I just spoke about in a little bit. But let's start at the beginning. How did arbitration find you or How did you find arbitration? How did you first get to do arbitration? Tell us a little bit about that.

Hasit: Yes. Uh So the first arbitration I attended was while I was in the final year of college, my father was doing a trademark plus partnership dispute, a long running partnership dispute. So that's the first one I attended. I mean, uh but I was just like observing as a bystander. But when, and I went to U.S. and had a U.S. career in patent law. But when I returned to India, I was working in house and all that. But when I returned to like Mumbai, I found that patent litigation is a very small niche area. I mean, in India, I wanted a broader canvas uh and disputes was always something that I've done and loved. So went into a firm and then independent. So we have a model similar to the UK barristers, we call them councils in Bombay. Same formal kind of a system because that's what we follow. But I mean, that's where I, I turned to arbitration. And uh fortunately I have like works come in as a council and and increasingly as an arbitrator and the I think there are bigger forces like India is building so much of infrastructure and there is construction everywhere. So it was like round peg in a round hole. I mean, uh somebody with a tech background with the disputes, you know, like this thing experience and this thing. And so it just like, I mean, I, I am there at the right time when so much is happening around arbitration in India.

Gautam: Yeah, and arbitration is really happening. India and arbitration are now synonymous in so many ways. It's, it's fair to say, isn't it Hasit that there are challenges in India with arbitration law and it's an area still in development which is no bad thing because everything needs to develop. But I wonder what if you could just share some of your thoughts about what are the challenges for arbitration law in India? And what sort of reforms do you think might be valuable to assist as part of bringing arbitration in India into a much if you like better place?

Hasit: Sure. So I I've been thinking about this, you know, observing like global jurisdictions where arbitration is a big success that legal culture in a place within which arbitration operates. So arbitration is never divorced from the courts completely. I mean, challenges to the awards under the ancestral model, et cetera have always been there. So the courts have a role, I mean, now what kind of role the courts want to play? Uh That's actually, you know, very jurisdiction specific. So if English courts don't set aside the awards, I mean, easily, uh that's a choice with that jurisdiction is made. India I mean, one of the challenges is that we have a certain litigation culture here also and arbitration is like a new flower that has grown up in that garden. How much of that litigation culture comes into arbitration and how much of it influences the court system? That's an ongoing process. It's almost a dialogue between arbitration and the legal courts and part of the whole legal culture, what I see as challenges and you're absolutely right when you say that there are challenges because it's growing and growth always comes with challenges. So one thing I would suggest is or think is, you know, there is need to move from ad hoc arbitrations to institutions and we can start with appointments, a government had made amendments but they have not notified them. And we have fine institutions like say Mumbai Center for International Arbitrations and others who can easily do in Delhi, there is a DIC who can easily do the appointments. I mean, why do the courts need to do them? So that's in low hanging fruit which can be easily uh brought in and then we can reduce the roll of courts uh for both interim relief and uh essentially anything that happens during the arbitration because people, litigants, think that, you know, you get an order in an arbitration, then again, you have to go to courts to enforce it if the other side doesn't follow. So why don't we go to courts directly? I mean, so the courts should discourage any uh that's written into the law so that they need to discourage anything in the interim while the arbitration is progressing. So that, you know, the focus is only on the completing the arbitration process. I mean, and other thing is I think there, there have been some efforts but we fundamentally need to rethink how awards are executed or enforced so that there needs to be some work because that's all in the domain of civil courts, I mean, the enforcement of the awards. So there needs to be some fundamental reengineering of it. And I, I understand the older rules are meant when land was the only biggest asset, the real estate was the biggest asset against which you could enforce the awards. But today money is in bank accounts is in stock markets, all that, all that can be target for enforcement quite easily instead of a long drawn process.

Gautam: Thank you. And, and you know, and I think these are the things because I mean, you know, we we often hear don't we Hasit that India has ambitions to become an arbitration hub. And I love that because I truly believe that India will become an arbitration hub. And why shouldn't it? Because it's one of the biggest economies in the world, it's now the fifth biggest economy in the world. It's got the world's biggest English speaking population. It's got an absolutely world class legal profession, a great legal heritage. And there are huge companies operating in India and from outside India operating in India. So why shouldn't it become a hub? So I wonder though, can I ask you this question? And this may be a mischievous question? But you know, I'm a mischievous man. If, if you were to look at your crystal ball and just think about the future. Do you have a feeling as to how long it might take for India to get in a position where with reforms with all sorts of experiences along the way it can become that arbitration hub.

Hasit: Yes, I'll, I'll take the risk of saying that my crystal ball says it will be within 5 to 10 years period. I mean, I don't see any longer time required because all the forces are aligned. Uh you, you come to, you know, India, uh often, I mean, to arbitration conferences, other things you can understand the, what the judiciary thinks when the judges come and speak uh at the conferences and also the government's, you know, willingness to support the economic reform. The, the direction of India's growth is now primarily economic. I mean, so the rest of the software hardware now is in place. So I think it's just a matter of time of taking less than 10 right steps, less than 10 right steps and it will be a hub. You look one of the biggest aviation markets, people say flying in and flying out would hardly be a problem. Uh It has got great tourist centers like Goa or, you know, Bombay or I mean, any place where the rest of the infrastructure of like hotels and you know, hearing centers, et cetera, we have got one of the best, you know, like mobile telephony. I mean, you come to India and the mobile speeds are excellent and a very reliable mobile infrastructure and it consumes data like nobody else. I mean, so what's, what's left? I mean, I just think we need 10 steps, 5 to 10 year period of stability and 5 to 10 right steps in sequence. And we are there hardly a problem.

Gautam: You know, I, I love that Hasit because, you know, I'm looking forward one day to, to see India become that hub because I'm genuinely excited about that. I don't see why it shouldn't become a hub. I think for all the reasons that I've mentioned. But more importantly, those that you've mentioned, India really should be that hub, you know, as you know, there's been so much progression over the years. And so I, you know, I just think it's just a wonderful thing to see and, you know, I actually share your prediction about the timeline it will take. So, um I'm glad that you and I, and you know, you and I didn't share our thoughts on that at all. So, and one thing I think just so that our listeners know, these, these podcasts are not orchestrated, they're not scripted, they're all completely impromptu. So everything we're saying here is completely off the bat as they say. Um, well, look, Hasit, thank you for that. Now, before I turn to ask you about your role as an arbitrator, because I'd like our listeners to hear some of your thoughts about um your role as arbitrator. I wonder whether you could share with our listeners if you see any trends in arbitration in India, um some significant trends that you think are gonna be happening in the next. Well, in well in the short term.

Hasit: Yes. So one thing is the efficiency in arbitrations is going up. Interestingly, India is one jurisdiction that experimented with a fixed time for arbitrations that you must finish it in this time. Otherwise there are consequences and that has worked really well. I mean, so that's one very good thing. We have a very good set of young arbitrators who are coming up. I mean, so and also it is exhibiting the, you know, the general trend in India where women outnumber men in legal profession, the women are entering, you know, legal profession in much larger numbers than before, obviously. But I think the ratio is now slightly tilted, more women than less men. And that's also being reflected in arbitration. I mean, both the party councils, uh the arbitrators and also like women, business leaders who are taking active role in all management positions also. So everybody, all stakeholders in arbitration, you will see these changes.

Gautam: Yeah, and that's one of the things that's wonderful to see, because there are, there is, happily much more diversity in the world of arbitration. Now, we, you know, women are, are rightly getting the profile they deserve and the recognition they they deserve. I also noticed just as we're doing this podcast, just a couple of days ago, the new round of senior advocates were announced in India and there's a large batch of female senior advocates who've been left. I think it's 11 new senior advocates who are women. Now many years ago, that was unheard of that was heard of. No one would even be thinking that. And it's just so wonderful that we are now seeing this and we're seeing more and more female managing partners of law firms, uh more and more female arbitrators coming up in India, which is great. Um So no, look, that's a trend Hasit that I'm very, very happy to see as indeed you are. So let us turn now to your role as an arbitrator because as I mentioned in my opening, one of the things that really has been wonderful to see is for me that I've been so proud to see and I will continue to be very proud to see with you. Hasit is your continued rise as an arbitrator because I love to see new people coming through and, and although I love judges, ex judges being arbitrators, I think there's definitely a role for more and more non judges, but just tell us a little bit about some of the lessons you've learned from your role as arbitrator because I know that you've sat as a sole arbitrator as, as a member of a tribunal and as a presiding arbitrator. So tell us some of your thoughts as to what you've learned along the way so far.

Hasit: Yes. So one of the first, from the very first arbitration, I sat as an arbitrator. I realized that you need as an arbitrator's support of the party councils, councils, representing the parties and parties also to conduct the process of arbitration very smoothly. So you need for them to buy in and believe in the process that is happening. You don't want them as your adversaries, you want them as your allies. I mean, as such on the procedural part, the substantial part merit, I mean, it depends on the facts. I mean, but essentially for the procedural smoothness, you need their cooperation from very early on from the po one when you are setting up, you know, the whole uh like you know, the timetable for the arbitration and how it will go about. That's a big lesson that I quickly learned. I mean that uh you need their cooper operation. The other thing I have observed is that although it's an adversarial process, you need a series of small a agreements on the procedural side with all the stakeholders for that, when the hearing should be held, how evidence should be taken, you know that there is always a challenge if one side wants the evidence to be of the traditional style where every all the documents are proved and all that or you would want, you know, like it to be the redfern style uh objections, all that. So uh extent of cross-examination role of the experts, all that needs a series of small agreements at every stage. So a very congenial kind of atmosphere, non pressured atmosphere where procedural things are taken care of in a very fair and efficient manner. I think the arbitrator has a big role in it and he has to be uh somebody who builds that consensus. So that's those are the early lessons. I got. The other thing, sir. Uh And I think most arbitrators would be feeling it at this time. Even the party which loses appreciates the efficiency of the arbitration. Ultimately, when the party which is on the losing side, they say we have saved time and money because the arbitration went on very efficiently and smoothly. So they also appreciate. So, I mean, this is something I really like that. Uh And consider it as a badge, you know, like uh you would get at the end that you did a good job.

Gautam: I, yeah, I completely agree with you. I think that whole issue about efficiency and the process is something that I think can never be underestimated. One of the things that I must say Hasit that I've always thought over the years that I've been in practice is that the arbitrators for me who always stood out are the ones, as you say, who build a rapport with the parties because that's really important, not thinking that they're aloof from the parties, but that they're there for the parties because one of the things that I think some arbitrators over the years have unfortunately got wrong is they've lost the sense that they are there to serve the parties, not vice versa. Arbitration is a consumer business. The arbitrators are there to serve the parties. And I think so what you say, I completely resonates with me totally. And I think the other thing that's hit me over the years when I look back at my experience over the years is that point again, it's tied to efficiency. But the fact that the parties feel that the arbitrators have done a really good job that they haven't cut corners that they've been fair. They haven't just taken a compromised position on things that they've actually decided things on the merits each time. And that can range from a document request issue that could range from other procedural issues uh to other procedural issues. It could even range to how a witness feels they've been treated in the witness box. It's just a question of that overall feeling of fairness and that the arbitrators have been engaged in the process because one of the things I'm sure you'll have found and of course, I won't say anything about names. You won't say anything about names, but there are some arbitrators who are very invisible in hearings who don't make their presence felt enough and some who are overly visible and overly audible. And I think there's a balance to be struck. I mean, I'm sure. And I, I would like to say you'd agree with that. But, uh, but no, I think, you know, but I mean, I'm very interested as I say in your thoughts. So thank you for sharing your thoughts as an arbitrator. So let me, um you know, we as I'm sure you, you know, Hasit, we, we like to end our podcast with a little bit of more lighthearted discussion. Everyone knows now about your incredible academic background, your journey to become what you are now, the fact that you've studied and worked in the U.S. that you've got an incredibly varied practice. You're an arbitrator, you're a mediator, you're, you're an independent council. I should have said that you're with H Chambers in Mumbai. And uh you also write extensively for many journals, you give me lectures. So you've got a lot of things you do in the law. But let's now stop talking about law. Let's stop talking about arbitration. Let's talk about you, the person when you have some spare time. What do you enjoy doing?

Hasit: Yes. So, I, I mean, long ago, you know, had this thing that I'm too much drowned into words. I wanted something non verbal as an interest. And what caught my fancy was drawings, drawings as a discipline. I mean, and starting from, you know, like caveman drawings, I mean, Neolithic stuff to like very modern practice. But I, I started collecting a lot of prints of many drawings. But uh and I have a very large collection of drawing related books. I mean, which I've collected in the U.S. and I still collect uh but what I find, you know, like the most fascinating are the drawings of the Renaissance era. I mean, and of old masters like Rem Brown and others. I mean, that's just a superlative human achievement. I mean, there are, there is now research showing that some of them use camera obscura and uh those kind of tools to aid. But despite that, I mean, you know, you look at uh Leonardo Vinci drawing or Michelangelo drawing, I mean, Queen has a number of them in her collection and they're like extraordinary human achievement. How how can you draw like that? I mean, so I just find those things very interesting. I have a large collection. I keep like reviewing that all the time.

Gautam: Oh, well, yeah, really, you know, I mean, art is a great thing and, and, and so varied as well in terms of. Um so, and, and you know, and is there a particular place outside India that you enjoy traveling? To, is there a favorite travel spot?

Hasit: Yeah. U.S. I mean, any day. Uh but I mean, obviously because I used to live there but uh the city which is New York City, I really like it with uh its museums, particularly the Metropolitan Museum of Art. I mean, New York is a great place. I mean, so, and, and also I like U.S. national parks. I mean, they, they are amazing. I mean, the scale of U.S. don't think so. Anybody living outside U.S. can imagine. It's a continent, it's not really a country and I got a chance in five years to explore it, but I still love going back. I mean, any opportunity I get and within India, I really like Rajasthan. Rajasthan is amazing. Uh with Udaipur, I mean, in particular, it's, it's a very lovely place. I mean, in desert people have created such wonderful places.

Gautam: Yeah, I I agree. I think Rajasthan is an incredible place and uh I've been very fortunate over the years Hasit to have been to a number of places in Rajasthan. I've been to Udaipur to Jaipur just to name two places. And uh it's, I mean, those in themselves, I mean, are incredible places. Um I've also had the very good fortune to stay on the Lake Palace in Udaipur. That's, you know, that is so for those of our listeners who don't know that was, it's a very famous Taj Hotel in the middle of a lake. But it's also where the James Bond film movie um had some scene shots and uh uh you know, and uh Octopussy was a Roger Moore uh film. It was a very, uh I still remember those days.

Hasit: I, I am a James Bond fan and I watched all the movies and series. I find that to be the weakest movie ever made there is a circus at the end and all that. I think Roger Moore must have regretted doing it later on.

Gautam: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm sure I'm, I'm sure he didn’t regret staying at the Lake Palace, but I'm sure

Hasit: Launched from a cannon and all that. They were like, it's too much.

Gautam: I know. Very strange. Some of those things, some of those films were very strange. That's, I suppose what makes them so enjoyable because people don't forget those scenes, they're talking about it on this podcast.

Hasit: Yeah, because I, I have read all the Ian Fleming books also and I was wondering, you know, what would he feel about, you know, like watching Octopussy?

Gautam: I know it's amazing. I mean, we, we can only speculate but one thing that I don't need to speculate on is that this has been a fantastic podcast. I really enjoyed doing it with you. Has thank you very much for being such a wonderful guest, being so engaging, so open with your thoughts and for giving us an insight into how you think about many, many things. And so thank you very much for that. Hasit and I look forward to seeing you in person very soon.

Hasit: Thank you very much, Gautam and Reed Smith for having me on the show.

Outro: Arbitral Insights is a Reed Smith production. Our producer is Ali McCardell. For more information about Reed Smith's Global International Arbitration Practice, email arbitralinsights@reedsmith.com. To learn about the Reed Smith Arbitration Pricing Calculator, a first of its kind mobile app that forecasts the cost of arbitration around the world, search arbitration pricing calculator on reedsmith.com or download for free through the Apple and Google Play app stores. You can find our podcast on Spotify, Apple, Google Play, Stitcher, reedsmith.com and our social media accounts at Reed Smith LLP on LinkedIn, Facebook and Twitter.

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