Spotlight on … Jasbir Dhillon KC

Transcript:

Gautam: Hello everyone and welcome back to the Reed Smith Arbitral Insights podcast series. Now this is the last in the special mini series to celebrate South Asian Heritage Month 2026. And I'm delighted to say that our special guest for this final episode is Jasbir Dhillon KC. Hello Jasbir.

Jasbir: Hi, Gautam. It's very nice to see you and it's a real delight to have you with us.

Gautam: Jasbir is one of the top Kings Council in the UK and has a global international commercial practice, of which I'll say a little bit more shortly. Jasbir is not only a barrister here in England and Wales, but he's also admitted to the bar in New York. Prior to working as a barrister here in London, he spent three years working at a major New York law firm.and having previously done his studies at Oxford and Harvard. And he really is an iconic name here at the Bar in London. And I'm really proud of all that he's achieved, not least because he is such a prominent senior barrister of South Asian heritage. And it's very appropriate that we are having this conversation to round out this special series. And apart from his very broad and successful practice as a barrister, it's very appropriate to mention that Jasbir is also a bencher of Grey's Inn, one of the four inns of court here in London. So it's a real honor to have you here, Jasbir. I'm delighted to be speaking with you. One of things I always like to ask our guests is how did you find law or how did law find you because you obviously studied law at Oxford and Harvard as I mentioned but how did that come to be?

Jasbir: Well first of all thank you very much for inviting me to speak Gautum and thank you very much for a very kind and very generous introduction. In terms of how I came to choose law. My parents hailed from peasant farming families in the Punjab, which at the time of their birth was part of British India. And both of my parents had a very limited amount of education and they came to England in the 60s to work in factories. Now my mother's dream, which was typically Indian, was that she wanted her sons, she had two sons, to become doctors. now her dream was realised when her youngest son became a doctor and ended up becoming one of the country's leading medical oncologists. Now my, as the eldest son, my dream was less typical of Indian migrants because my dream was to play in front of the cop at Anfield for Liverpool Football Club, who were then and I should say are now the most successful football club in England. Absolutely. But unfortunately for me, my limited aptitude for football and for science meant that I was never going to fulfil either my own dream or my mother's dream. So I was I attended a comprehensive school and I had no connections or any exposure to the law. But I was an avid TV viewer and I was captivated by a courtroom drama series on ITV back in the late 70s and early 80s called Crown Court. Yes, I remember it. And I was very impressed by the eloquent barristers and the way they commanded the courtroom with their speeches. And that show was a major factor in my decision to go and study law. And as you mentioned, I was very fortunate to gain admission to read law at Oxford and then while I was doing my undergraduate law studies, I was again fortunate to get the opportunity to study for a postgraduate law degree and I managed to get a scholarship to fund the very expensive LLM program at Harvard. In terms of why the bar, when I was a second year undergraduate, I did work experience. went to work for a major city law firm. I went to work for, get some work experience with a criminal law set of chambers. And then also I did some work experience with a commercial barrister chambers, which was then called One Brick Court. And I was a mini pupil of a gentleman called Richard Aikens, Peregrine Simon, junior barrister then, Andrew Popperwell, all of whom subsequently became commercial court judges and all of whom subsequently became law justices of appeal. Well, my work experience convinced me that the commercial bar was my first choice because I wanted to be an advocate. I wanted to solve complex business problems.but I knew that becoming a tenant of commercial chambers was and still is fiercely competitive. So I then went about trying to maximise my chances of getting a tenancy with a commercial set by getting a very good undergraduate law degree and then trying to add some academic luster to my CV with my masters from Harvard. And as you mentioned,Instead of coming straight back to London after my LLM, I then decided I had the opportunity to spend three years as a commercial litigator at the New York bar with a Wall Street law firm, Cravath, Swain and Moore, a very eminent law firm. And that experience added to my academic qualifications were invaluable in terms of enabling me.

Gautum: To be able to overcome the imposter syndrome that one inevitably has, apply and then secure a tenancy at Brit Court Chambers where I've been ever since. Well, I mean, that's an incredibly powerful story, Jasbir. And I want to just go through that a touch because you've mentioned some incredible people who've been part of your story. I mean, clearly at the top of the tree are your parents. And I've got no doubt there will have been a huge influence on you and huge inspirations to you. And you've mentioned some real giants of the English bar who you worked with when you were a younger man who are all eminent former and current judges. I wonder if you could just share with us a little bit about. And again, mentioning those names, but maybe there are some others. If you could just share with our listeners some of those people who've been inspirations and mentors to you in the course of your career. And even now, I mean, now you're a senior at King's Council. I dare say you've still got some people who you look to to give you guidance, mentorship and to give you advice. I wonder if you could share some thoughts on all of that please.

Jasbir: Yes of course. So you're quite right that as a school student my primary inspiration was in fact my mother. And my mum worked incredibly hard doing shift work at a factory in order to put food on our table and a roof over our head. She didn't have the education to help me with my studies. But she drilled into my brother and I a strong, unshakable belief in the power of education to transform our lives and an unrelenting commitment to realize that transformation. Like many South Asian mums, she would wake me up early for school exams and feed me or provide me peeled almonds and cups of tea in the belief that this was brain food. And based on my experience, it seems to have worked. It certainly has. Then in terms of my mentor at school, the one who stands out is my history teacher, Richard Woolmer, who helped me prepare for the Oxford entrance exam and through his teaching gave me a deep love of history, which I cherish to this day. Richard also has a very interesting connection with the Punjab because he was born and brought up in Lahore where his father was the bishop. Now in terms of my love of the law once I started studies that was inspired by Professor Jim Harris. He was the person who was responsible for taking a chance on me and giving me a place at Oxford and he also taught me criminal law, property, trusts and legal philosophy. And his intellectual rigour, his powers of legal analysis set the standards for me and I would say a generation of fellow students and our awe for Jim Harris was even greater because he was in fact blind. Then I would also add or single out, soon to be Lord Justice Saini has also been a role model throughout my academic and professional career. I first met Sir Perpinder on my first day in the law library at Oxford. He was a couple of years senior to me. He was and is one of the cleverest lawyers I have ever met. And it has been inspirational for me to watch a Sikh lawyer from modest beginnings, similar to my own, have such a stellar legal career, first as a barrister and then as a high court judge and now soon to be a court of appeal judge. Finally, I should add, as you touched on, Gotham, I've been fortunate to have been led by many of the finest QCs at the commercial bar at Britcourt Chambers and they've taught me an incredible amount about advocacy. The QCs I'd single out were the late Mark Hapgood, who was the doyen of the banking bar. George Leggett, QC, now Lord Leggett, Justice of the Supreme Court, whose written advocacy was as fantastic as his written judgements that you can now see. Jonathan Sumption, Queen's counsel, later Lord Sumption, Justice of the Supreme Court, from whom I learned much about oral and written advocacy, and through whom I met my wife of 26 years. And then finally, I should mention Sir Sidney Kentridge, Queen's counsel, who I would simply put it, he was the best that I have ever seen put on the wig and gown. So throughout my career, I've been the beneficiary. I stand on the shoulders of giants in terms of sources of inspiration and mentorship. And then I have tried throughout my career to encourage and guide young people to study law, to consider a career as an advocate, whether as a commercial solicitor or as a commercial barrister. And then once they enter the profession to thrive as associates, partners, junior barristers and KCs. And I've done that, as you mentioned, when I was a junior barrister and a silk at Brit Court Chambers, I've done that as a member and then a venture at Grey's Inn. And I've also done that as a part-time academic, initially at Oxford University and then subsequently at the LSE.

Gautum: Yeah, I mean, again, and that's such an incredible account you've given there, Jasbir. I mean, just the sheer number of people who've been so instrumental in your development. you know, although I'm not a barrister, I'm a solicitor. There are so many parallels in what you've said, which I just to reiterate how powerful that is. My mother and father were both incredibly just so generous in so many ways in my development. But my mother used to look after me like your mother did. And actually I felt really nostalgic because both my parents have passed away and the story you mentioned about how your mother would feed you brain food. My mother did such a similar thing to me. So I did feel rather emotional when you said that to be honest and that was such an incredibly strong thing to hear from you. And then all those people who'd been part of your academic and your professional journey. I was tickled by the fact that Lord Summachine was responsible for introducing you to your wife, which is an amazing bit of mentorship and guidance in life. So that's incredible. you know, and I just think we all learn from people along the way. there's certainly been a number of partners that I've learned from over the years. Some of them have retired. Some of them are still with us. And I wouldn't be anywhere near the lawyer that I hope I will one day be, had I not had their guidance. So just hearing what you've said has been incredible. want to turn to your practice because as I mentioned in my introduction, just beer, you've got an incredibly broad and very successful practice. indeed one of the, and I should have said in the introduction that one of the nice quotes about you amongst many nice quotes about you is that you were devastating cross exam. And I can imagine just how devastating you would be, but with a twinkle in your eye and that charming smile that you have. But Justin, tell us your practice. Tell us a little bit about, I've mentioned some of the areas that you cover. have a very broad practice, but I wonder whether you could share some examples of some of the current work that you've done, subject of course to confidentiality. I wonder if you could share just a couple of examples of some of the things that have been keeping you busy as we now approach very soon the end of the court term. Yes, I mean, as you mentioned, my practice has been predominantly commercial and I've had a particular focus on banking and finance disputes involving complex financial products. But it's always, I think, useful for those who are starting out on their careers to understand, how do you fall into such a technical specialist area?

Jasbir: And the answer is, well, my first ever case in New York involved allegations of rigging of the US Treasury bond auctions by Salomon Brothers. That's an investment bank that no one where exists. And I simply on day one was forced to learn all about financial derivatives. I didn't have a clue what those things were. I started learning about them, I found the whole topic fascinating and as a result of those years of experience I found I was deemed an expert in financial derivatives and that then led when I came back to England to being involved in many of the leading cases in that field including cases arising from the collapse of Baring's brothers and then subsequently from Lehman Brothers. Many of the cases that I've been involved in because they are commercial cases are very large and very complex pieces of commercial litigation in terms of a couple of recent examples. I acted for Qatar Airways against Airbus in a massive multi-billion dollar case relating to the design and manufacture of A350 aircraft and another very large piece of litigation I've been involved in which only finished earlier this month, is an 11-week trial of a fraud claim, a claim of about $1.2 billion, arising out of gold bullion and diamond trading against my clients, who are a family hailing from India. So those are a couple of recent examples. But as you mentioned, although commercial work has been the mainstay of my practice, is I've always sought to be a versatile lawyer and over the years I've acted in many different types of dispute from EU law, competition law, sports law, intellectual property law cases, company law cases, insolvency law. And have even done cases involving defamation. So one key theme of all the cases that I do is that they usually have a very strong international element and that may come in the form of either appearing in front of a foreign court, Cayman Islands or Bermuda, or tribunals such as arbitral tribunals in Paris or Switzerland or Singapore, or the connection might be representing a foreign client in the English courts. And my US qualifications and experience are very useful in that regard if there's a US connection, but also in my South Asian heritage is very useful in helping me understand disputes and parties who have a connection with India, Pakistan or Bangladesh.

Gautum: Jasbir, you mentioned there, just as in your last answer, as you were ending your last answer, about how understandably your heritage enables you to understand very easily, essentially by way of DNA, how clients from South Asia think, want to be advised and how they do business. I feel exactly the same because like you, I also do a lot of work with South Asian clients and my innate ability to understand how they think and operate and how their opponents think and operate is incredibly helpful. So I want to just focus on your South Asian heritage because as you mentioned, parents hailed from the Punjab and South Asian heritage is obviously the theme of this month and is one of the themes of this podcast. And I wonder whether you could share with our listeners what your South Asian heritage means to you and how it drives and impacts what you do. You mentioned, just before I hand over to you, you mentioned, again, in a very powerful way, how your mother just really wanted you and your brother to do really well, to excel. And that again is something that really resonated with me because my mom and dad were not lawyers, but they wanted my sister and me to be the best at whatever we could do and that philosophy just ran like the wording in a stick of rock through my life and my sister's life. So I wonder whether you could share some thoughts about what your heritage means to you and how it's impacted you.

Jasbir: I think my South Asian heritage is an incredibly important part of my identity. I am proud Sikh and a proud Punjabi. The values of Sikhism, particularly the principles of equality for all, hard work, selflessness and a concept which we call in Sikhism, Chardhi Kala, which is a spirit of optimism during difficult times are very much my own values. Punjabi food, Punjabi music, Punjabi culture, language and history are also very important to me. And that Sikh and Punjabi heritage enable me to understand and relate to other persons of Asian background. From all regions of South Asia and from all religious backgrounds as a Sikh because it is one of the world's most modern religions. We have taken a lot of elements from other religions, from Islam, from Hinduism and being Punjabi, we're all over India, all over the world. I think I've read somewhere that one third of the Indian diaspora is Punjabi. And so we have these connections with, know, whether you're from Tamil Nadu or from Assam or from Maharashtra, we have these innate connections. And I think it does enable me to be a better advisor and a better advocate when I'm dealing with disputes which are governed by Indian or Pakistani or Bangladeshi law or when dealing with someone or parties which operate in a South Asian business culture, which is different in certain respects from the business culture that we're used to in Western Europe or North America. I actually also think that my openness and sensitivity to other cultures helps me understand and deal with disputes with any foreign element even if it's not South Asia because business practices in South Asia often bear resemblance to business practices in the Middle East or in Africa or in Southeast Asia or East Asia.

Gautum: Yeah I know and again that's so true and that ability because you mentioned how so much of your work is international. And we all know that our clients are all drawn from different cultures and backgrounds. So inevitably that really helps. And again, that really resonates with me because those exact same issues are exactly how I feel about it as well. And it's a real gift to have that broad mindedness and so much of what you said about religion, about how that's been an influence on you, the tenants of Sikhism and how that I'm sure just drives a lot of how you think your philosophy. Again, it's really great to hear that from you, Jasbir. I just want to touch on, I've got two more things to touch on before we round out this incredible podcast. I could carry on talking with you for a long, long time, but these podcasts, unfortunately, cannot go on for an hour. I could easily fill an hour with you. There's so much to talk about. But I want to ask you one last thing based around what we've been talking about. And then I'm going to finish with a totally separate area. But you mentioned about in your capacity as a venture at Grazing, your work as a senior barrister, as a mentor to younger barristers and younger lawyers, an inspiration to them, given all that you've achieved and the great name that you've got in the profession, but also as a teacher as an academic, you've been able to influence and touch the lives of a lot of people. So I wonder whether you could just say a little bit about how the role of people like you, and I will to a limited extent include myself in that, although I'm not anywhere near in your category, the role that people like you have in broadening the ability, the confidence of others of our heritage to do really well in the legal profession?

Jasbir: I think it is vitally important that potential entrants to the profession who are persons of colour or from working class backgrounds are not deterred by the misconception that our profession is not for them. When I entered the profession, whilst there were partners of law firms or QCs from a South Asian background, that would be in criminal law or immigration law. There were, as far as I was aware back in the 90s, none in commercial law. Happily, there are now eminent law firm partners like yourself, Gautum. And also QCs or KCs in our field of commercial law. And I won't let you hide your own light because you have quite simply done incredible work in this field of encouraging and developing talent from those hailing from a South Asian heritage with all of the work that you do hosting events and with this wonderful podcast. But of course, it is vitally important that senior practitioners like us spread the message where it still might be hard to reach that whatever your heritage, whatever your background, you can bring your true self to work and you can still enter and thrive in commercial law. And it's also important that for junior practitioners who've managed to get over the first few hurdles and are here in the city, it's important for senior practitioners, I think, to encourage them to reach their full potential, which includes a very important part, includes drawing on their own heritage as an important part of their toolkit in order to market themselves and in order to generate international work which is so important for all of us in the commercial law field.

Gautum: Thank you and thank you for all that you've done in this field because you're so true, you're so right in everything that you've said about there's no obstacles to people of South Asian heritage to ride high in this profession. The obstacles are there to be cleared out of the way but it's important that people like you and me and give them inspiration and hope. And the idea that they can not just equal us, but surpass us. And that's one thing. And as a young lawyer, because I dare say we're about the same age, but as a young lawyer, when I started out as a trainee in 1991, there was no one of a South Asian heritage in any senior positions. And your point about barristers at the commercial bar rings true. There was no one at that time. And so it's wonderful to see people like you doing everything that you do at the bar. So thank you very much for that. Now, just to round out, one of the most popular features of these podcasts, apart from hearing from brilliant people like you, Jasbir, is that our listeners really like this last segment that we do, which is completely unrelated to the law. It can be if you want to be, it depends, but I always love asking our guests what they love doing away from the day job, away from the law. So some of the things that you enjoy, be it music, film, anything else. So what are some of the things that Jasbir Dhillon likes doing when he's not working so hard at what he does as a KC?

Jasbir: Well, there is a very long list of items, but I'm only going to give you a few snippets. I don't think there's any doubt. if you ask anyone who knows me, top of my list is football and in particular Liverpool Football Club. Me too. Good choice. I started supporting Liverpool in around 1975 when Kevin Keegan, who sadly passed away earlier this month, was king of the cop and I've supported Liverpool ever since. You mentioned music and music is another area which is close to my heart. I enjoy very many genres of music but I have had a particular fascination with rap music that started as long ago as 1983 when rap music was in its infancy in New York City and I've been lucky enough to see one of the all-time greats Busta Rhymes in concert at the Nice Jazz Festival only last Saturday.

Gautum: Incredible.

Jasbir: But I am also looking forward to seeing an all-time great South Asian and Punjabi musician, Biljit Dasanj, when he comes to London at the end of the summer. And then finally, but very much not least, I spend a lot of my free time reading history books or listening to history podcasts. And in particular, I'm fascinated by the history of empires, including the British Empire in India. And the more I study that particular history, the more it seems to me to explain and illuminate the political disputes that we see prevail all over our modern world.

Gautum: Incredible. thank you so much, Jasbir. One thing I think it's only fair to say, just as we round out this podcast, is I'm also a very keen fan of history. And one of the areas that I'm particularly fascinated about and that I continue to research, and in fact, a former partner of ours at Reed Smith and I have agreed to write a book on this is the history of the Indian army in the First and Second World Wars, because that is an area of history that's been very unwritten, untold and has been forgotten. And there's a lot to tell. And there were many and a huge part of that army came from Punjab, as you will know, many of them were Sikhs and there were many sacrifices made by them. So we'll talk about that separately about history because you and I share a passion on history as well.

Jasbir: All I should add to that is sign me up. I'll be an avid reader of that book when it comes out.

Gautum: Look forward to it. I'll at least get one sale then will I? Excellent. Well look, just be a thank you so much for being such a wonderful guest. I thank you for being a wonderful role model and inspiration for lawyers of South Asian heritage. I really do, I genuinely have huge admiration for you and I know that our listeners will really enjoy this podcast. So thank you again, Jasbir.

Jasbir: Thank you, Gautum. Been my pleasure.

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