Transcript:

Gautam: Hello everyone and welcome back to the Reed Smith Arbitral Insights podcast series. I'm Gautam Bhattacharyya, your host on this podcast. And this is a special podcast in a series to celebrate and commemorate South Asian Heritage Month 2026. And I'm really delighted to have as my special guest today, Niranjan Venkatesan KC. Hello Niranjan. Niranjan is a sensation and sensational. And I'm very proud to have him on this podcast. He is a barrister at one Essex Court, one of the premier barrister chambers in London and worldwide. He was called to the bar in 2015. And remarkably, hence why I said he's a sensation and he's sensational, in only 10 years of he was elevated to become a KC last year, a King's Council last year, which is remarkable. In my career, which has spanned now, I've been doing what I've been doing now for 35 years. I've never known anyone to have been elevated in that short space of time to the hallowed rank of KC. So Niranjan as you know, I'm very proud of you, but that's a wonderful, wonderful achievement. Niranjan is a really top barrister in a number of areas. Commercial law, all aspects of commercial law, international arbitration, heavy litigation, civil fraud, insolvency, the list goes on. Niranjan is also an academic. I should not forget that he should be called Dr. Niranjan Venkatesan. He holds a DPhil on the law of misrepresentation. And he also taught law at Oxford before practicing full time at the bar. So Niranjan, I could say a lot more in my introduction, but I fear I'd carry on for 10 minutes. So again, a very warm welcome to you. And I'm overjoyed that you're with me on this podcast.

Niranjan: Thank you so much, Gautam, for that very kind, overly generous introduction. It's such a pleasure to be on this one. Thank you for inviting me.

Gautam: It's, it's fantastic. And one thing I always tell witnesses when I'm working with them, it's easy telling the truth. So if I say that to myself as the podcast host, when I tell the truth about one of my guests, it's easy. So, so what I'm going to do because we're doing this podcast about international arbitration, commercial practice, and also to celebrate and commemorate South Asian Heritage Month. So Niranjan, I wonder if you could share with our listeners a little bit about your background, where you studied in India, whereabouts in India you hail from and what drove you to choose the bar as your medium of legal practice?

Niranjan: Of course, it's a very good question, Gautam. I grew up in Chennai, which is in South India, and I was there till I was eighteen, so that's where I went to school. I then did an undergraduate law degree at the National Law School in Bangalore, which is also in India. And I knew from a fairly early stage, probably from when I was around twelve or thirteen thereabouts, that I wanted to be an advocate. It's difficult to attribute that to any single factor, but I remember that I used to read legal biographies. I still do I participated in advocacy or public speaking events in school. So perhaps because of that, by the time I started in university as an undergraduate law student, I already had an interest in advocacy. But what then happened was that while I was in university, I also developed a deep academic interest in the law, in particular in what one might describe as black letter law. And if you have that combination of interests, so interest in advocacy and interest in black letter law, that tends to make the bar a rather obvious choice. But at that stage, when I was an undergraduate, I thought I'd go and practice at the Indian bar. But I subsequently changed my mind about that. And that happened because I came to this country immediately after I finished my undergraduate law degree to do a postgraduate degree at Oxford, the BCL, which is one of the best intellectual experiences that I have had. And because of the sort of thing I was doing on the BCL, I knew probably about halfway through the BCL that I definitely wanted to come to the commercial bar in London. And that's what I went on to do. I think the reason for that, which has been vindicated by the experience I've had at the bar, is You have the opportunity when you practice at the commercial bar here to argue difficult and interesting legal points before some of the finest judges in the world. I think we're very fortunate to have the judiciary that we do. And the caliber of the judges means that the experience of preparing for hearings and debating those points in court is a very enriching and intellectually stimulating experience. Ultimately, that's what drew me to the commercial bar here.

Gautam: Well, I must say I'm one of many people who is absolutely delighted that you chose the English Bar over staying at the Indian Bar. We're much better for having you here. I've also I must say, because I'm a bit of a legal geek and I do enjoy the law like you do. I often in the course of the cases I do read the actual judgments in various cases and I came across one of yours recently, which I didn't realize you were involved in, the Attacker Bretanni appeal, because it came up in the context of a matter I'm involved in. And I was really happy to see your name as one of the, in that case, successful appellant council. So, you know, so it's always great to see.

Niranjan: Yes.

Gautam: someone who loves the law as much as you do Niranjan. So, you know, you had a very interesting background, right? You were in Chennai, you went to university in India, you came here to do your BCL, you stayed on to do your DPhil. And then you came to practice at one of six court, you know, and as I said in my introduction, one of the absolute premier sets, not just in London, but globally. And there are many people in that chambers who really are not just first class, but world class. But along the way, no doubt, you will have been inspired and mentored by a number of people who've been part of your journey to where you've got to today. And so I wonder whether you could share with our listeners a little bit about those inspirations and mentors and to name them if you'd like to. And also if you could share with us how those experiences with those people have shaped your role as a mentor to younger lawyers these days.

Niranjan: Yes, you're absolutely right, Gautam. I I I've been very fortunate to have had a number of mentors over the years. Indeed, I'm not sure I'd be here, but for the benefit of that mentorship. And I suspect I'm not alone in that. Most people who fought successful careers will have drawn on on such mentorship. So going right back to my undergraduate days. I was taught constitutional law, I remember, in my first year by Professor Rye, and that was my first introduction to how well black letter law can be done, and the insights that are available to those who are prepared to read cases closely, multiple times. Think about how those cases fit in the historical evolution of that area of the law and with legal principle more generally. So he was an important influence. And then when I came to Oxford to do the BCL and then the D Phil, I learnt a great deal from my tutors, especially Professor Adrian Briggs, Professor Ed Peel, Justice James Edelman, as he now is, who encouraged me to come to the London Bar at an important time in my career when I needed to make decisions about what to do, and I'm very grateful to him for that. ever since I started at the bar in 2015, I've been very fortunate to have worked closely with Laurie Rabinowitz, KC He is one of the finest lawyers and advocates I have ever seen, and probably the person I've learned the most from. And more generally, when I was a junior, I had the privilege of working with some of the finest commercial silks of the day, such as Mark Howard, KC the late Robin Dicker, KC David Mumford, KC and I learned a great deal from all of them. Indeed, I think one of the great things about the bar is that the opportunities for learning and for improving your craft, which is ultimately what this is, those opportunities are pretty much unlimited because you learn from your juniors, from your leaders, from your opponents, from your instructing solicitors, from judges. There's always something you can pick up and always ways to improve what you do. Those are just some of the mentors I've had. There have been others and I'm indebted to all of them. Second part of your question, how has that influenced my own approach to mentorship? The most fundamental thing is my own experience taught me the importance of mentorship, how much it can add to somebody's career trajectory and simply to someone's ability to improve their craft. So for many years I've been trying to help in in the same way. There are formal mentorship schemes which have been introduced probably for the past seven or eight years, but there are also informal opportunities to mentor people you work with, junior barristers, people in the solicitor team. And that's something that matters a lot to me.

Gautam: Thank you. you know, I think that whole concept of mentorship is so important because all of us here who do what we do are very fortunate and blessed to do what we do. But there are many people who have been part of that and who remain part of that. it's and this sort of blends into the next thing I want to ask you about. Because when you think about the fact that we're doing this podcast, in celebration of South Asian Heritage Month. There are so many lawyers like you and me of South Asian heritage who are in the profession and have gained more and more seniority in that profession, be it on the barrister side or the solicitor side. And we're very privileged to have had those opportunities. And then we need to pay it back and support the younger generation.

Niranjan: Yeah.

Gautam: I wanted to turn to this theme Niranjan. What does your South Asian heritage mean to you? And how does it drive and impact what you do?

Niranjan: it's very significant. As I explained, I grew up in India, I have friends and family there, so there is a strong sense of connection. And more generally, I think everyone's heritage shapes, whether consciously or otherwise, who they are, how they see the world, their personality, and so on. it's not easy to identify particular aspects of my approach to work which which are influenced by my heritage. But I'm I have no doubt that there are there are some. For instance, I'm not suggesting that this is distinctively South Asian, but when I grew up there was a particular emphasis on hard work, humility and kindness, and those are aspects of my upbringing which are of particular importance to me. And and no doubt others will say similar things about their upbringing, their heritage and how that has influenced the way they approach their work.

Gautam: and I completely agree with you. I think there are those common traits that are always instilled into us, I think, you know, as much younger person. I remember, you know, my sister and I being brought up here Well, should say we were blessed with understanding so much about our heritage. And heritage for me stands for history, culture, language, all sorts of things, ways of life, religion, faith, family. There are so many aspects to it. you know, I think those are the things that I think I always when I reflect on my upbringing and as I look at it now as a much older person with a lot of grey hair and increasing by the day, you know, in an odd way, I'm not sure what you think about this. I honestly feel as I've got bit older, I have become even more entrenched and attached to how lucky I am. to not only be very blessed to be British, but also to be blessed with my South Asian heritage. And I'm not sure whether you found that this is sort of something that sort of got more deeply ingrained with you as you've become more senior. What's your thought on that?

Niranjan: I couldn't agree with you more, Gautam. I I I that's certainly been my experience as well. I I I can't say I know the precise reason for that, the correlation between the strength of the connection and age, but but I I I agree with you and I imagine that others will say similar things about the correlation between how they feel about their heritage and as they age. But for instance, my daughter's two and a half and and last year we took her to India for the first time and that was very special because she's never been to India before and it was an important moment that she could see see where we grew up.

Gautam: Yeah, it's incredible, isn't it? I mean, I remember the first time I took my children to India. It was real eye-opener for them because they had not been there and they didn't go till they were a bit older than two and a half. But, you know, they were like blown away by how different it was, you know?

Niranjan: Yeah, just the number of cars on the road, for instance. Just the noise level. Exactly. Exactly.

Gautam: Yeah, exactly the noise, the number of people, all sorts of things, you know. But no, no, that's really interesting. Now, one thing I want to do is just go back to your practice because, as I said in my introduction, you have a very broad and a really wonderful commercial practice which encompasses so many different areas. One of the things I always find very interesting is, you know, when you think about the practice of international arbitration. It's something that's obviously developed over the years. I recall when I was a very young lawyer, even as a trainee solicitor in those days, a long, time ago, arbitration was often seen as a completely different area of practice. And it's obviously evolved and it continues to evolve. But for you,

Niranjan: Yeah. Yeah.

Gautam: When you compare what international arbitration work demands of you and what your commercial litigation practice and advisory practice demands of you, do you think that there are significant differences or do you think the lines have become so blurred these days?

Niranjan: It's a very good question. my view is that there are many similarities but also some important differences. I would say the biggest similarity lies in your task as an advocate. So whether you are doing a case in the English court or you're doing a case in international arbitration, ultimately your ability to secure a successful outcome for your client depends well, it depends on many things, but the two most important things in my view are one analytical ability. You've got to be able to analyze the case. In a very rigorous way, work out what the right answer is and what answer is likely to be receptive to the judge, and then present it in a simple, clear and persuasive way. So that that's the same whether you're in court or in arbitration. But there are some differences, partly cultural, partly procedural. for instance, sometimes you get a case where The best point for your client is a very technical legal point, but the merits aren't with you. Those are those cases are not easy to win, but winning them can bring very significant upside to your client. And those cases I would say are harder to win an arbitration than they are in court, because A, arbitrators are less constrained by procedural rules than say a court is. For instance, it might be possible to block an amendment to a pleading in court. On the ground that the limitation period has arguably expired, and there are very restrictive rules about when you can make post-limitation amendments. But that sort of point is unlikely to be available in arbitration. So that's a procedural difference, which can affect the prospects of successfully running certain types of points. But there's also a cultural difference, which is I think that arbitrators generally are more interested in the merits than judges are. In saying that, I don't say judges are not interested in the merits, they are. But it tends e to be even more pronounced in arbitration than it does in litigation. And it's important to have that in mind in working out what point is likely to be most receptive to your audience. So I would say there are differences, although there are many similarities.

Gautam: and I agree with you. when I'm involved in various cases, one of the things that's always the same thing is the legal principles are always the same, right, in terms of the law, because the law is the law. I was finding it interesting. that sometimes styles of advocacy differ in court and in arbitration, just because you often have arbitrators drawn from different jurisdictions. Whereas, as you know from your own experience, and you've argued cases in the commercial court, the court of appeal and Supreme Court, you know that there are differences. And that leads me to sort something else that I'm always really interested to ask people like you, Niranjan, is you've obviously done a lot of appellate work in the Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court. And not many people would have a sense as to how being in the Supreme Court differs from the Court of Appeal. Of course, you've got five judges in the Supreme Court as opposed to the usual three. in the Court of Appeal. But from your perspective, I'd just be very interested to sort of have a sense from you as to what are those differences for you? Is there a different tempo, a style, a way of doing it? Are the questions different? What's your sense on all of that?

Niranjan: So there's actually a difference between the Court of Appeal on the one hand and first instance advocacy on the other, and another difference between the Supreme Court on the one hand and the Court of Appeal on the other. the most important difference is probably this. I think that not running bad points is fundamental to your ability to be a good advocate at any level. Because the problem about a kitchen sink approach where you take every conceivable point is that. It will become apparent to the judge that some of these are bad points, and that will just affect your credibility and it'll infect the force of the good points. But that is even more important at the appellate level, and the definition of a bad point, I think, changes slightly, which is you've got to work out well in advance of court. what is likely to strike the court as the right legal analysis of the case, inevitably the answer to that will not be obvious because if it were, you wouldn't be in the appellate courts anyway. and in doing that, there will be some points which are arguable but will likely fail. It's almost always better not to run them, because they will fail. You will just have spent the limited time that you have in an appellate court on points that don't bring you success. The second and related point is I think intellectual honesty. Again, it's important at every level, but especially so on appeal. And what I mean by that is not just the obvious point that you shouldn't mislead a court. That's professional misconduct. What I mean is you need actively to help the court work out what the right answer is, even if it involves making points against yourself. It's not a sign of weakness if you tell the judge there's a case that's against me, but here's my answer to it. They will just trust you more and they will have worked it out anyway if you didn't tell them. So it's just you're more likely to be an effective appellate advocate if you're helping them work out what the right answer is likely to be. And questions I think are a very good thing for an advocate because the more questions you get, the more data you have about how the court is seeing the case, what is troubling the court. And as long as you've analyzed the case properly, you ought to have an answer to those questions. If you're asked a question which reveals some fundamental flaw, which is irredeemable and fundamental flaw in your case, then that is usually almost always a sign that something's gone wrong in the preparation. You will get questions, no matter how well you prepare, which are not foreseen. But you ought to be able, if you've prepared the case and analyzed it properly, to identify answers to them. Not necessarily answers they'll accept, but credible. Persuasive answers. So I tend to welcome questions at any level, and you get more of those on appeal, because you have, as you say, got them three in the Court of Appeal and five in the Supreme Court. And they are all they will be specialists on the court and sometimes some generalists as well. And that may mean that they come at it differently. But but it's it's a wonderful experience. I think appellate advocacy is probably the best advocacy there is at the bar.

Gautam: Yeah, I can absolutely understand that. you know, I think when you, develop this skill, obviously, you clearly have developed it, where you can deal with questions that you expect and those that you don't expect. Because they will inevitably be questions that just come at you from nowhere. You've just got to literally, as the cliche goes, think on your feet. No, I always find that particularly interesting. And when you think about different courts and also different arbitral tribunals, they always have different personalities on them, different questions, different approaches, some more vociferous members, some quieter members, and as you say, some generalists and specialists. well, look, thank you so much. I mean, I think that's such a interesting insight from you on all of that. one of the things that I mean, obviously, as we're drawing to the end of the podcast is that you're an incredibly busy person and you work very hard. When you're not working and when you're not taking your daughter on her maiden visit to India, for example, what sort of things do you enjoy doing? Because I always love asking our podcast guests this question because everyone has a life away from work, right? So what are the things that you love to do when you have time to do them?

Niranjan: I love traveling. I love playing tennis. I'll come back to that in a moment. Watching sport, spending time with my family, reading. A and especially after a big hearing, I like to have a couple of days off before turning to the next one. It's not always possible because sometimes you have back-to-back hearings. I used to play tennis when I was in school years and years ago, but not for very long, not particularly well, but I enjoyed it and then I just didn't do it for years. But Four years ago I resumed playing tennis at a tennis club near home and I I loved it and I play regularly, at least once a week, sometimes more than that. And likewise travelling. The good thing about being at the bar is that usually you can take a lot of August off. And even outside of August, when the courts are closed, you know well in advance what your diary is looking like, when big hearings are coming up. And it's usually possible with some planning to carve out time for holidays and I tend to be reasonably protective of my weekends as well. It's some you you need to do some work on weekends, but you don't have to work every weekend. I'm not even sure it's desirable to do it because the break helps you work better when you get back to it.

Gautam: Yeah, no, that's true. I couldn't agree more. And look, since you talk about tennis and how you play so regularly, and since we're recording this podcast during Wimbledon Fortnite, do you have any favourite players in tennis?

Niranjan: All the greats really, Fedra, Djokovic and all I think what Djokovic is doing at this age is it's remarkable and not not just for people who like tennis, but it it tends to demonstrate that the power of the mind to achieve things that many people would regard as impossible. i it's quite something.

Gautam: Mmm. Well, it is, you know, you know, I think there's so much we can learn from sports people who are at their peak in terms of not about the law, but about approaches to how you do things, the discipline, the focus, the concentrating on what you can do, not what you can't do and all that sort of stuff. And, you know, one of the I mean, I remember because

Niranjan: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Gautam: I am significantly older than Junior Engine, but you know, I remember as a young boy watching Bjorn Borg on the TV and when he was at his peak and then he had as you as a tennis fan will remember, he had that big rivalry with John McEnroe and just watching those sorts of players in the days before all the fancy, know, rackets that

Niranjan: Right. Yes. Yes, of course. Yeah. Yeah.

Gautam: are now available. And in the days of the Max Ply Fort, know, the Dunlop Max Ply Fort bracket and all that sort of stuff. And it's just amazing. I mean, you you look at how those players operated and, you know, just in terms of the precision and the focus, you know, I was, I still think that's, that's, you know, pretty remarkable. And then dealing with the pressure.

Niranjan: Yes, yes.

Gautam: of those points because as you know as a tennis fan, very often there's very little in matches. It can be one break of serve and that's it. And that's all it takes. A bit like a football match where it's one nil. But no, well look, I hope that you continue to enjoy your tennis. And I'm going to ask you one last question before we wrap up. And that's about

Niranjan: Yeah, yeah. It yeah.

Gautam: one of my favourite subjects which is music. Do you enjoy music? Do you have any favourite sorts of music, genres, bands and that sort of thing?

Niranjan: Right. I do. It's been a very big part of my life because my father is not only a chartered accountant but a carnatic musician, a professional musician. And when I was young I used to learn music as well, although I didn't pursue it after I went to universities. I still listen to it. I like different kinds of music, Indian classical music, Western classical music, various other things. and it it's

Gautam: Uh-huh.

Niranjan: is remarkable what music can do. You tend to associate certain types of music with certain periods in your life if you're listening to that type of music. And then it comes back to you. You happen to hear that song years later and it reminds you of what you were doing at the time when you when you were when it was part of your Spotify playlist, as it were.

Gautam: Hmm Yeah, I completely agree with you. There are some times I'll hear a track, you know, if I'm driving or on the radio or whatever, and it'll take me back in time and evoke such memories, you know, real nostalgia, you know, as well as wishing I could move my feet if I wasn't driving and that sort of stuff, you know. But no, Nirenjoh, thank you ever so much for your time today. It's been a real...

Niranjan: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Gautam: joy to speak to you. I really do mean it when I say that you're a sensation and sensational because you really are one of the stellar people at the bar and I'm very proud of your achievements, Niranjani. It's incredible to think that just 10 years call you made Silk and that really is incredible. Very well done on everything you're doing. Thank you for taking time for this podcast and thank you for being such a wonderful person to show what people of South Asian heritage can do and achieve in their careers.

Niranjan: That is so kind of you, Gautam Thank you once again for inviting me and thank you for doing this podcast series, which which I have greatly enjoyed listening to. And it's as always a pleasure to to speak with you.

Gautam: Thank you and see you soon.

Niranjan: Thank you.

Outro: Arbitral Insights is a Reed Smith production. Our producers are Shannon Ryan, Amanda Saunders, and Mason Kautz. For more information about Reed Smith's global international arbitration practice, email [email protected]. You can find our podcast on all streaming platforms, reedsmith.com, and our social media accounts at Reed Smith LLP.

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