Transcript:

Intro: Hi, I'm John Iino and welcome to the Reed Smith podcast, Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions, and challenges, past and present, all with a goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included.

John: So we're here today with my partner Amber Finch. Amber and I have been friends for a long time. She's a partner here at Reed Smith in Los Angeles, and she's one of my favorite people here at Reed Smith. It's just a pleasure to have you here at Amber and to share your story. So the title of our podcast is Powerful Personal Stories, and when I thought about our various guests, yours certainly came up first. You're such an inspiration to so many people and really wanted you to be able to share some of your stories with our audience. So tell us a little bit about your story and what you think, what you hope people might take away from it.

Amber: Sure. So first of all, I want to thank you all for having me here. John, I really appreciate your kind words. It truly has been a blessing and a benefit to be here working alongside with you at Reed Smith. And when I think about who I am, I put myself in two buckets. Personally, I'm a wife, I'm a mother of four children, and I really am the center of our household professionally. I am a black woman partner at a global law firm, and I think that right there really indicates in details who I am, the challenges that I might face throughout my professional journey and what I've done to overcome some of them. Just to give you an example, I wear my diversity to work every day in plain sight. Internally. It means that I'm a visual demonstration that gender diversity can and does exist within our partnership, and that racial diversity exists within our partnership as well. Externally, it's proof that a black woman can be a partner at a major global law firm. Statistically, I find myself in or around the 0.64% of black women partners at law firms in the United States and at Reed Smith home of 1700 lawyers, I'm one of eight, so don't get me wrong, I find that I am very blessed to be in this position being here paves the way for future generations of black women who dare to dream how to become a law firm partner and that it can be a reality. I have the pleasure of mentoring young black women across the country from young associates to law school and college students, and even to the young black girls at my church who don't know any lawyers or other professionals in their own lives. Simply because of who I am and what I do, I get to be a living, breathing example of a role model. And where it's most important for me is that I get to be that living example to my own young daughters who will one day become strong, fierce black women in their own right.

John: Well absolutely captured everything that there's so many things there, but you are such a role model. It's just an inspiration to be around you. I've seen you speak in front of crowds of 20 to 500 and just amazing every time you deliver your messages. So tell us a little bit more about you growing up. How did this person become Amber Finch superstar partner at Reed Smith?

Amber: I don't know about superstar. I grew up in San Diego in a single parent household. My mother was a federal employee. Her major win in life was owning a home. My mother grew up in the projects and was one of nine kids the only one to go to college. We lived in a modest home in a black community. My mother never forgot where she came from. She made sure my sister and I spent time at my grandmother's house in the projects. And I didn't realize it at the time, but at some point in my life I really started to understand what a difference a single generation can make. Growing up, I went to the neighborhood public high school where it was really 99% black. I graduated valedictorian of my class and obtained a scholarship to attend Stanford University, one of the most preeminent schools in the country, and it really changed my life from that moment on. Four years later, I headed to the University of Southern California Law School.

John: Right on.

Amber: That's right. And after my first year there, I happened to get a summer associate position at another major law firm up the hill. All of a sudden, the trajectory of my career changed, the trajectory of my family life changed the trajectory of my future generations and my offspring changed really in an instant. When I look at my mother, who was one of nine kids growing up in the projects for her entire life, moving out, getting a federal job and then raising a daughter by herself to then become a partner at a major law firm, that from a community standpoint is something to be proud of, is something that we talk about even to this day over the dinner table. And there are just roads and strides that I've made in my own life that I now know that my kids don't have to go through that same journey.

John: You talk a lot about your kids and I know for example, your daughter, your daughters, you have a number of daughters, but what kind of advice do you give them, just whether it's over the dinner table or in the car and the rest when they have some hard knocks in their life, what is the advice you give to your daughters?

Amber: Sure. I think the first thing is recognizing that you're not always going to get it your way, and more importantly, there are multiple ways of getting to the finish line, that it's not just a start, stop, straight line type of avenue. My kids did not have to necessarily go through a lot of the challenge that I went through or frankly am currently going through. They're just in a different generation and they're in a different place. Similarly, I didn't have to go through a lot of the same challenges that my mother did being a single parent. I'm blessed to be married to my husband. We just celebrated our 19 year anniversary, so that's something that my kids didn't have in their house, and so I just remind them and tell them about the stories when I was growing up and how I find challenges at school or even here at work. If I'm the only person in a particular situation and have to deal with some of the implicit biases that come my way throughout my day, I remind them that in order to succeed, you have to stay firm and stand strong. Don't worry about what other people think. Remember they're going to go to the side. You have to keep climbing

John: People move to the side, you keep climbing. I love that. So talk about a little bit about some of your challenges. You mentioned like some of the biases and things like that that you face, whether it's frequently if the day to day or just things that really get on your skin.

Amber: Sure. So I mean, I talked a little bit about my journey in getting to become a black woman partner, and that's really what I call the poster story, right? The marketing ad of you can make it, you can do it, but the truth of the matter is, wearing my diversity in plain sight on a day-to-day basis is hard. It can be very exhausting and it's a constant battle, and more frequently than not, it's lonely at times. Every day in my professional career automatically triggers someone's implicit bias from the moment they see me. I don't have to speak or utter a single word like many women professionals, I have to deal with the gender stereotypes, the concerns about whether my responsibilities at home might prevent me from exercising my responsibilities at work. When I think about those stereotypes, I say to myself, do you really know how organized and efficient I am or really have to be? Every single morning I get up, I wake up my four kids, I get the little ones dressed for school and my myself for work, and then to proceed to drive them to three different locations in the middle of Los Angeles, rush hour traffic so that I can get to work with my coffee in hand by 8:30. So for me, I know what I can do, but there's always this visual potential obstacles that others are looking at me. And the same thing is with inside my office and outside my office. Many women like myself, we've been mistaken for a secretary. I've been mistaken for a court reporter. I've been mistaken for the receptionist at a mediator's office. Being black, I've been mistaken for a juror, a member of the courtroom staff. And even when I've appeared in criminal courts, I've been mistaken for the defendant at legal conferences. I remember in particular, even though I was dressed in a suit with my heels on, I was questioned about my status on the hotel property. When in between breaks I went to the pool area to go work on a brief. One of the groundskeepers came up to me and asked me if he could see my key card, and at the time the pool was crowded. And I looked at him and I said, did you ask the couple next to me for their key card? Did you ask that family across the way for their key card? Is there something about me that made you ask me for my key card to check my credentials? And it's just things like that being a black woman, that I find myself in professional context that I'm always having to fight the implicit biases on a day-to-day basis. I also have to deal with the angry black woman syndrome. I have to deal with hair issues and what's quote unquote professional. So those are just some of the challenges that I face on a regular basis that if I allow them to control my thinking, my thought process, I would've left this game a long time ago, but instead, I've learned to rise above and keep going and be an example for those behind me.

John: That's amazing. It's like you said, just let them move aside and you keep going. Hearing some of those challenges, I don't know, do you just put it aside? How do you deal with that when you're mistaken for whatever court reporter or someone's asking you for, ID just must get you just so angry, right? But how do you deal with that.

Amber: From time to time it does upset me. I will say over time I've learned to deal with it a little bit differently before I would just let it roll off, not say, be much more complicit. Now, I try to educate and use those opportunities as a moment for the other person to recognize their biases. So if I'm mistaken for a court reporter or a secretary, instead of just casually walking away, I'll say, no, actually I'm the partner counsel of record on this matter. I represent so-and-so client in the instance with the key card situation, instead of showing them my key card, I said, did you ask everyone for a key card or was there something particular about me that made you ask for my credentials? So I do it in a way that is non-offensive or at least try to be non-offensive, but in very direct and pointed so that they see why the question is triggering an implicit bias.

Sometimes it gets exhausting. Sometimes I get angry and I do have to surround myself with allies. We share stories. I might call one of my six or seven partners across the firm to say, can you believe that? So-and-so just said X, Y, and Z, and they might respond, yes, I believe it because so-and-so just said it to me last week. Also, I have been very active in minority bar organizations across the country, black women lawyers in particular. It's one of my organizations where I formally led. That was particularly important for my growth professionally because that was a safe space where I can talk to other black women in my profession who also shared the same challenges and be able to share notes on how to overcome them, how to deal with it, how to do it in a way that does not make you look less important or make someone question your loyalty, your credibility that would otherwise jeopardize your career.

John: I know you said earlier sometimes it could be lonely. For those of you who don't know, Amber was the president of the Black Women's Lawyers Association of Los Angeles, and what a great organization that is. So being able to have comfort from some of your colleagues there, like you say, some of our own partners and the like, but yeah, it's could be lonely. One of the things that we're really trying to do at Reed Smith in terms of our diversity inclusion is opening up people's eyes just to understand who people are. A big point of all these podcasts is just to get people to learn about people understand each other. One of the topics that if you've read the book White Fragility by Robin DiAngelo, the issues are is that people have a hard time talking about racism. They come away from thinking that if you talk about anything or if you say the wrong things, you're going to be viewed as a racist and you're going to be viewed as a bad person. But part of the point of book is it's not right, wrong. And to say to somebody, what did you mean by that? You're not necessarily calling them a racist. You're just trying to say, Hey, I want to help educate you a little bit better, and you're not a bad person here. So we're trying to get people to just understand each other better and to not put up all these defensive guards. So it was a long-winded way of saying, how do you think we could push forward? Really? How can we make a difference? How are we going to be able to move the needle with not just solace amongst ourselves, but help others see what we want them to see about us?

Amber: Well, and that's really part of the reason why I enjoy working with you, John, being here at Reed Smith and being the Los Angeles market share for diversity inclusion has allowed us to peek into those and peer back what I call the curtains a little bit. I think we have to get comfortable with being a little uncomfortable so that we can educate ourselves. And I view it as really being an issue on both sides. One is you can't tiptoe around some of the issues so much that you just decide it's better to avoid them altogether. And on the flip side, those of us who are minorities, we can't be so rushed to judgment to calling someone else a racist for saying X, Y, or Z simply because they don't understand. And so what I have tried to do in this past year of programming here in our office is really start to pull back the curtains, be a little bit more comfortable with each other, allow a quote safe space to ask some of those questions, or let me be the voice to ask the question that I know you've been thinking about for 15, 20 years, but you didn't feel like you wanted to ask the question because you didn't want to be presumed racist.

So we have in the last year and look forward to continuing throughout 2020 is had these conversations with various folks across the racial spectrum. I remember for Black History Month last year, we had a conversation with two of my good friends on popular culture, black popular culture in particular in mainstream media. We talked about the Wakanda effect and how Black Panther, that movie really allowed you to have a visual screening of being fierce and being black and them not being mutually exclusive. We talked about Beyonce's Coachella performance and how in both of those instances, the numbers, the stats really just demonstrate these are not just black issues. These are not just black cultural events, but these are things that can to mass audiences. We talked about some of the particular cultural statements that were being made in her performance as well as on screen of Black Panther and how those really come from black historical perspectives. And we allow people to see them explain what they mean and then give you a little bit of a green light, if you will, to ask further question. After our presentation, I had several people of all different races come up afterwards, both at the event itself as well as in my office, talk about books they read, talk about conversations that they had with their friends or their family members, talk about something that they may have seen on TV the other day. And it just allowed for more open communication on living and living with other people. And the more and more you allow yourself to be uncomfortable for a few minutes, the more comfortable you can be throughout the remainder of your day and your week and your year.

John: I love that you need to be comfortable being uncomfortable. We should have trademarked that a while back because I remember Ken Frazier from Merck said that on a panel one time and I said, wow, I love that. And it's just captures it so well, you've done such amazing job as the head of our diversity program here in Los Angeles, and what I remember you did was a fireside chat with Ron Gilner. Ron shout out to you, hopefully you're listening to this podcast. But Ron has been a employee, a member of our professional staff for over 30 years here. And he told a story about we'd have some people that he works in office services, so he's always in the hallways and walking the hallways, walking the floors. And he said that there were some people that he saw every single day and just looked right through him like he didn't even exist, been here for 30 years and people don't even know anything about him, don't know about who he likes, his kids or anything like that. And he said, little, this person just would stare right through him. And finally Ron just said, Hey, how are you today? And then this person looked up and said, oh fine. And he just did it over and over and over again before that he finally acknowledged his presence. And so I thought it was just an amazing story that we're able to bring out, bring to life because here's people that we see every single day, but do we really see them? We've passed 'em in the halls, but do we know them? And so that was just really so fantastic. What do you think some of us should be thinking around in terms of combating stereotypes?

Amber: The first thing to do is to see us just as you described with Ron Gilner, don't walk down the hall and not say anything. See us recognize that we are there and see us for who we are. I may be different from you, but my difference brings a different perspective on life, on client matters, on how to get through the career trajectory. And so those differences are important. Don't ignore them. The second thing is let's get down and tear down those walls. We talked about conversation, so how do you have those conversations? Sure. What happens if you don't have a Black History Month event to go to? What can you do? One of the things that I personally try to do is really make an affirmative effort to introduce myself to people, all people across the spectrum, across the title hierarchy, and to make sure that people know who I am as a person. It may allow both myself and the other person to really get to know who we are no matter what my race is, my gender is my situation at home, what my book looks like here at Reed Smith, how big my office is, just who is Amber Finch. And sometimes that can happen really over lunch or even over coffee. There simply just aren't enough of us out in the market here professionally as well as even in the social context to frame what a black woman is or should be. And especially when you talk about black women lawyers, we have what I would call somewhat of a caricature portrayal of black women lawyers out there. We have Olivia Pope from Scandal, we have Annalise Keating from How to Get Away With Murder. And for obvious reasons, I can definitely tell you that neither one of them portray who I am.

And our real life examples really, truly are polarizing. You have Kamala Harris, you have Michelle Obama, but depending on how you vote, red or blue will determine whether or not you like that person. And so if those are the four examples that you have of what a black woman lawyer looks like or is supposed to be, I've already lost most of the folks within my industry. Instead, I want them to see me for who I am and what my worth and contribution is, and I can change the narrative of what a black woman lawyer is and how she presents herself over lunch, over coffee, one step at a time.

John: I love that. And whether it's lunch, coffee, just hey, conversations over the water cooler, there's so much that we can be doing just to get to know each other and start to combat those stereotypes. We work a lot in terms of here at Reed Smith, just engaging allies and our diversity inclusion program is really for everyone because everyone has an element of diversity. It's been really important that it's not viewed as only a minority thing or an LGBT thing or a woman thing. It's that it's, it's for everyone. So we really have tried to focus on engaging allies, engaging champions. So things like you said, we could just go to lunch, we could have coffee, we can talk about our weekends over the water cooler, but what are some things that you'd suggest that or allies or more people within our environment can do to create a more inclusive environment and a more affirming environment?

Amber: I would say the number one thing is to be intentional. No matter what you do, be intentional about it. Be aware, care and pay. Very close attention to the stats. We are very much a statistically driven profession, clients business dollars. And so a lot of times we as minority attorneys get lost in the shuffle because our stats may or may not be there. It is what it is for whatever reason. And so when you see a minority lawyer who comes in and has a potential to succeed, don't wait until they're seven years out and it may be too late for them. Help them the minute they walk in the door to provide them with a platform to be able to gain the visibility that's necessary to succeed. Introduce them to the people that matter in the institutions. Make sure that that person is reaching out to the people that matter in the institutions, senior management, executive committee, office chairs, practice group chairs.Make sure that not only does the young lawyers see them, but that also those leaders in the firm see that young lawyer when it comes to diversifying your teams, be intentional about it. Don't always go to the same person that you've been going with for the last 30 years. You don't have to replace that other person, but add a new member to your team to provide a larger portfolio or perspective to your clients. Introduce your diverse colleagues to other members within the firm where they can also be intentional about diversifying their teams. And think about credit. Credit comes in a lot of different ways. Sometimes it's accolades, sometimes it's an email saying, hey, so-and-so worked on this brief for me and it was a fantastic job. We ended up winning on this issue for the client in court. Sometimes it's more than that. Sometimes it's financial credit. The point is, at every step of the way, think about how you can be intentional bringing that diverse lawyer into the fold and actually wrapping your arms around him or her and elevating that person to the next level so that they have an opportunity to achieve success.

John: I love the concept of giving credit. One of the things that we want to make sure that people start doing more of is just giving people credit or amplifying, amplifying people's voices. I feel that if you did get that opportunity to be on the team, maybe you might be a little hesitant to speak up. Some people feel like just fortunate to be at the table, to be in that room for the leaders of the team, for other members of the team, to be able to amplify those people's voices like saying, that's a really good point. Tell me more about that. Right? We talk about diversifying teams and we're working hard to make sure we bring in more diversity in all of our teams. I think we also need to spend some more time just teaching people how to be more inclusive within those teams. And so whether it's amplification, whether it's not talking over people, whether it's thinking about ways to get people to just to get to know each other. Just thinking about some of the teams that you've been on and the teams that you've done a great job in terms of making it very diverse. I dunno if there's any examples that you can think of what some of those teams did just to bring the team closer together. And I've said this before, it's one thing to say we need more diversity, but you just can't throw people in, just random people together and expect great results. It still takes intentionality around getting to know each other, right? Absolutely. And developing that chemistry like a sports team. You just don't get all these great athletes put together and all of a sudden have a winning team. You got to learn how to play with each other and learn each other's strengths and learn each other's weaknesses and how to cover for each other and how to amplify each other. So if you've had any examples from some of your teams that just seemed to go really well in terms of being more inclusive.

Amber: Sure, absolutely. I'll give you an example. When I was an associate looking to make partner here at Reed Smith, one of the teams that I was on, very heavily partner team, given the nature of the case and the issues that we were dealing with, I was one of very few women on the team, but yet my partner in charge had a good knack for recognizing that and ensuring that I had another mentor on the team that could sort of be my person to go to when there were issues to understand the ropes, the politics, how different people may have worked together, how there might be any issues with the client, for example, but more importantly in terms of getting together that comradery that you talk about. John, my partner in charge, would actually have us all come in, fly in somewhere every once in a while, and we were on a large team across various offices. So every quarter we would get together, have dinner, talk about our families. We wouldn't necessarily talk about the cases. We'd do that in the morning and then we'd go dinner, talk about our families, talk about what we like to do, talk about a movie we saw last week or the concert we went to the other month, and over time, by the time we were at the end of the matter and we all got together on his boat, we were really good friends over a course of year. And it didn't matter who was a man, who was a woman, who was black, who was white. We were just really good friends who had worked together for this client moving towards the same goal for the past several years. Fast forward to me now sitting in the partner chair. What I try to do for my associates and my team, I try to do the same thing. Now, I don't have a boat yet. I'm still working on that, but I'm also on the board of Los Angeles Legal Aid Foundation, and so we participate in a lot of pro bono activities Through that relationship, one of the things that I did that benefited both my team here at Reed Smith as well as Legal Aid, I was able to have our team participate and host a Skid Row clinic. And so I took my team. We got in an Uber over to Skid Row where LAFLA holds its clinics. We were able to serve, I think well over about 12 people that night. My team of six, we finished up there, felt good, gave back to the community, and then we had dinner together as a team to talk about our experiences in giving back. And then of course, the conversation just naturally turns into, what do you like to do? What do you do at home? What's that movie? Has anyone seen this and that? And it really did bring us closer, and it has allowed me actually to use that as an example for the other people on the LAFLA board to try the same thing with their teams. It's one way of just being able to bond over something that gives back to the community as well as brings you closer as a team so that you start to again, open up, peer back, those curtains a little bit and get to know who you're really working with. And it just makes the day go by a little faster and a little easier when you know that people really have your back.

John: That's awesome. Amber, you're just such an amazing person. Just said great, great role model. I just thank you for sharing your vision, your history, your story being you, just sharing you with our audience. So thank you. Thank you so much. It's just been a pleasure.

Amber: My pleasure.

Outro: Inclusivity included is a Reed Smith production. Our producer is Ali McCardell. This podcast is available on PodBean, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, and reedsmith.com.

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome.

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