Transcript:

Intro: Hi, I'm John Iino and welcome to the Reed Smith podcast, Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions, and challenges, past and present, all with a goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included.

John: Hey everyone. Welcome to the podcast. We've got a special episode here. It's part of a new series we're developing in terms of deconstructing white privilege. I'm here very privileged to be here with a great guest as well as our co-host. Devon Jaffier is our senior manager for public relations here at Reed Smith, and he also is the professional staff chair of our Black African-American Employee Resource group. So Devon, great to have you co-hosting today.

Devon: Thanks for having me, John. Appreciate it.

John: And our special guest today is a friend that I've gotten to know over this course of this year, Ryan Williams. Ryan is a cultural worker in Minneapolis, Minnesota. And in fact, when Ryan and I were talking, it was literally the weekend after the George Floyd murder and living there in Minneapolis. You've certainly seen a lot of things in firsthand. So Ryan is the author of numerous articles, including Examining Whiteness. I got to know Ryan because he's an instructor for a program called Re-Imagining Whiteness, which is a group of for white people to better understand their racial identity, the evolution of whiteness, and examining the causes and roots of racism. So welcome to the show, Ryan. We really appreciate you being here.

Ryan: It's a real honor to be here, John. Thank you.

John: So Ryan, maybe we'll start with talking a little bit about your re-Imagining Whiteness Programs. What motivated you to put that together and what have been your goals for the program?

Ryan: Yeah, I think the course is designed to really shed light on this thing called whiteness, right? And I think for so many of us, us being those of us that are considered white and half white skin, we've never thought about what that means. Certainly haven't considered that it impacts our life chances in any significant way. And that's not news. That's a lot of people who talk about whiteness and white privilege and do anti-racism work have correctly pointed out that that's a part of white privilege is the ability not to think about race and not to think about whiteness. And I wanted to push that conversation a little bit because I think where that discourse has gone is that it actually needs to be examined. It needs to be critically examined for all the violence that has been perpetuated in its name and the ways that it has disconnected people who look like me from the rest of humanity. And so that was really the impetus for the course was to reimagine what does it mean to have white skin, to be considered white and to function within whiteness, not just to acknowledge that it matters, but to reimagine a different way of being in that context, moving towards the dismantling of white supremacy and the eradication and abolition of whiteness.

Devon: Ryan, thanks for that. And I was going through some of your previous work, and it's quite a litany of writing that you've done in the past, but I'm really curious to getting your perspective of how white privilege is defined because I think that especially in these times we've heard various definitions of the term, some of them more detailed than others. So I'd be curious to hearing how you define it and how do you express that definition in your course?

Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. And so I think before anytime I answer this question or discuss the topic of white privilege, I want to draw attention to an often quoted saying by Audre Lorde, the master's tools will never be used to dismantle the master's house. And I think there's no clearer example of that than in the failure of our language to talk about whiteness and white supremacy. And this is an example of it. So certainly there are privileges that come with having white skin, but it is not a privilege to be white. And I think that is the point that I really want to drive home. So what's a privilege of white skin? Peggy McIntosh's work is foundational on this where unpacking the nap sack people who look like me can go to the store and get skin colored band-aids that match, right? We can see people who look like us and all these things. And yes, those are things that affirm our humanity and support our humanity and make us feel seen. They should not be privileges that everybody should feel that way. And I know as this discourse has evolved and become more sophisticated, you'll hear that, you'll hear people say, well, some of these privileges are just things that everybody should experience and some of them are unearned. So for example, my name is significantly more likely to get a callback for a job interview than a name that sounds ethnic, like a non-white name. And that is a privilege that should not happen, and that's an unearned advantage that's given to me, and I want to acknowledge that. And so to complicate what should maybe have been a simpler answer, white privilege is simply the ability to exist in our world with assuming that your full humanity is going to be acknowledged and then having even to the point that your own deficiencies or mediocrity are not held against you. So their shirts and sayings where it's like, I've moved through the world with the confidence of a mediocre white man, I think that's white privilege. It's the ability not to have to live into your full potential. I don't think that that's a privilege. I think that that's a shame and something that I don't, I think we need to work really hard at unlearning and dismantling.

Devon: Yeah, I mean that's great. And I think having that context is very helpful towards systematizing white privilege, and I appreciate you going into that level of detail. Now, an article you wrote for The Good Men Project, I noticed that you wrote this.

Ryan: Shout out to the Good Men Project. I got a few articles out there.

Devon: Honest with you when I saw your work there. I was like, okay, I can get down with this guy. This is solid. But you wrote in one of your pieces back in April of this year, you said that white Americans need to do the work to understand their own identities and work towards an ethic of solidarity and shared community, which is a mouthful. So I'm curious what you think is the first step in doing that work.

Ryan: Yeah, great question. Ooh, I just got goosebumps so I could talk about this. The first step in that is understanding our own identities. And the first thing that I understood when I'm like, it lit the fire underneath me to do this work. It wasn't reading White like me by Tim Wise, shout out to Tim and that work, so many of us are in this work because of him and his work and unpacking the invisible knapsack, shout out to Peggy McIntosh for that as well. But those weren't the things that really lit the fire underneath me. The thing that lit the fire underneath me was learning how fluid and changing and fraudulent the legal definition of white has been, that it is legally, you can go through case law, you can trace its origins and the colonies being directly tied to multicultural, poor people rebelling for material resources you can name. That's the part where whiteness starts. And then you can trace its development and how it served those in power. And so this identity, so many of us have been taught, oh, we're white and then we accept it and we don't critically interrogate it. And it just is, it becomes the water we swim in and it just is what we are. And it's not even a real thing. Where do white people come from? Some people say Europe. Well, Italians weren't white for a long time. My ancestry, Irish people weren't white for a long time. How did we become white? There was just recently an article being shared. Is Antonio Banderas a person of color? It's complicated. He's from Spain, that's Europe. If white people come from Europe, then he's white. But obviously there's other indicators that other him, mainly his last name and his language that he speaks, which is associated with brown people in America. And so now there's an othering there. And you can literally go through every ethnicity, Hungarian, Southern and Eastern Europeans. How did they become white? That was the thing that lit the fire underneath me to understand what am I on this planet? Where am I ancestors from? And my work at the Cultural Wellness Center on the south side of Minneapolis really solidified the importance of that work for me and the life-giving nature of finding out who we are and what cultural practices we bring. I grew up in Northeast Minneapolis and I told this story in my class, John, you probably remember it, but I want to tell it here briefly because I think it is informative and it illustrates the fraudulent nature of whiteness and why it's so important to take that first step to understand ourselves as something other than that in Northeast Minneapolis is a densely immigrant neighborhood, working class neighborhood when I was growing up in mostly Eastern Europeans. So we had a lot of Polish and a lot of German families there. Other languages were Polish and German. It's since shifted as labor trends have shifted and immigration trends have shifted. So it's increasingly central and Mexican American. But I told the story about this bar, it, it's name was STS. It was on the corner of Lowry and University. If there's any northeasters out there listening to this, you'll know that STS is the place that you went to. It is a northeast cornerstone. And the recession in 2008 hit northeast really hard. Northeast is one of the most heavily gentrified, if not the most heavily gentrified neighborhoods in Minneapolis. And statues closed. And I remember a lot of us were really sad about it, and it opened back up and we were like, great. Well, it didn't open back up. Something opened back up on that corner, a restaurant and a bar, and it was like, cool, we're going to try this out. It had a new fresh new facelift. Stacho has had one window. Now what's there? It is all windows. It's got a patio and it's great, but it's informative because what opened is called Stanley's. And Stanley's is an anglicized version of statues. And just to me, it's such a powerful example of the price that being white or American. Now, Dr. Nell Painter wrote a history of white people and argues that we're in the fourth expansion of whiteness, which ties whiteness to Americanness. We can talk about that, probably not. That might be a whole nother podcast episode. But so many of us gave up so much. We gave up our languages. We gave up our traditions, we gave up our religions. We gave up our foods in a lot of cases for the ability to not be discriminated against, to not experience violence in this country, to be considered a part of America, to assimilate. And our heroes even are loud as saying, this is what it takes, Teddy Roosevelt, it takes two generations to be fully American. We talk about the nativist trends as if they're not fully present in 2020 and that they're not tied to whiteness. And I think that's because we don't understand who we are and what we gave up. And so for me, that's the first step is understand that our ancestry is tied to something that whiteness isn't. Its totality that we came from a cultural people. We have cultural practices, we have things that tie us to humanity and tie us to creation in really meaningful ways, and we need to reconnect with that. And then once we do that, then we become capable of being in genuine relationship across lines of difference. And so particularly here in Minnesota, you'll see this at this time. Everybody wants to be out here doing something right now. I've never seen so many people, so many organizations, not just in Minneapolis, but across the country saying something has to change. What is it? And sadly, a lot of them haven't done the work to understand themselves. And so they end up trying to do things for other people. And that's saviorism. And nobody needs that. It's a deficit model of thinking about communities that have been marginalized, particularly black and brown communities, particularly black communities. I think we need to name that our country is built on the genocide of native people and the dehumanization and anti-black racism that was required to justify the institution of slavery. And so when we're trying to do things for those communities, we're not doing the necessary work to be in genuine relationship. And that doesn't lead to a healthy future. And we can only be in genuine relationship if we understand ourselves. Whiteness does not allow us to understand ourselves. And so that's why I think that those two steps are really, really important. I wish I could say that wasn't a mouthful in explanation, but this thing that we call whiteness is centuries in the making, and it's going to be quickly unlearned or not going to be messy to unlearn it and untangle these things because tied deeply to masculinity, it's tied deeply to capitalism and our economy. But we got to start that work and we got to be very clear that we're doing our work for ourselves and that it's about developing our own identities and our own humanity. Not doing something for communities, but with communities.

Devon: Yeah, I mean, listen, I didn't consider that to be a lot of words at all. I think it's a very complex issue. And quite honestly, it also requires people to challenge everything they knew about themselves. And one of the most difficult things to do is to deconstruct everything you've been told, everything you've been taught, everything that most people in your social circles have been told and taught, and it requires a certain amount of rebellion against that thinking. So no, I think complex situations require complex explanations. But that actually leads to my next question is that we tend to have a bit of a difficulty in dealing with complex, I think it's just human nature in general situations that challenge our prescribed thinking. So how do you raise this issue to someone that you have either recently met or someone you're at a cocktail party and this issue comes up, which if I can editorialize a little bit, I think it's probably going to happen more often than not given the moment that we're in. But how do you broach such a complicated, complex and in many ways personal issues with people who may not necessarily be all that comfortable engaging in that level of conversation?

Ryan: Yeah, another great question. It's always lead with relationships and lead with curiosity, right? It is a trap of particularly liberal whiteness to want to be in competition and be the quote wokes white person or the one that doesn't racist that I know these things. I've read these books, and so therefore, let me tell you about all the ways you are messing up. And again, it's ironic because that is steeped in whiteness, that level of competition, that level of that lack of humility to be able to sit back and be in genuine relationship and understand where somebody's coming from to want to be right. And so I think when you lead with that, it can diffuse many of those situations. And then that opens the space to ask questions and to ask more. Because honestly, what I've experienced in those conversations is that people are feeling the pains of American life. And what do I mean by that is our society does not do a good job of honoring period. If you're not a wealthy white, straight cis man, you're going to feel some sort of otherness, some sort of marginalization. We have our basic human needs are tied to our ability to pay for 'em, right? And so what I've experienced is that people want to be heard. They want to be seen. They want to know that what they're feeling is valid, that they're worthy of human compassion, of love of relationship. So when you lead with that, you can then point out that, hey, yep, I hear you. I see that. And what's happening right now or how you are moving and the worldview that you're perpetuating is leveraging what W.E.B. Du Bois causes the wages of whiteness, right? It is leveraging the only thing that you have, which is the fact that you are white to put yourself above other people who share your 99.9% of your interests. So there's a book Dying of Whiteness that illustrates this categorically, the regions of our country that would benefit from universal healthcare are the most staunchly against it, that benefit the most from it and are the most staunchly against it. Why? Because social programs and taking care of a social contract that genuinely values humans is seen as being affirmative action or done for unquote those people. And so asking questions, affirming humanity and pointing out commonalities are how we move people to be in solidarity. And then giving examples of anti-racist people. So I shouldn't even say we all, because I'm not sure that everybody does know who William Lloyd Garrison is, but oftentimes he was an abolitionist. He's taught, he's framed only as like, oh, this was Frederick Douglass's friend and he wrote this newspaper, but he's not the only abolitionist. Why don't we know about John Brown? Why don't we know about miles Horton in the Highlander Center? There are examples of solidarity, of anti-racist solidarity, of economic justice movements of organizations pushing for basic human decency to be fundamental in how we distribute resources, and we just don't know about them. And I think taking the opportunity to build and to inform about those things allows us to then organize for, to solidify those things in policy and in systems. And that's what excites people. And then you let relationships develop as they will. I never want to say you're not going to get along with everybody no matter what. You know what I mean? There are white people that don't like me. There are black people that don't like me. And that's okay. You don't have to like everybody just because you are across a line of difference. What you can't do is advocate for their systemic oppression and vote for policies that systemically oppress them and limit their life chances based on that, because it somehow makes you feel better. And that's what whiteness does, particularly the people who are oppressed in other areas. So you'll get poor white people who want to leverage their poverty and justify their investment in whiteness because they're poor. Well, actually, people of color and poor black and brown people have way more in common with you than the white people who you're trying to be in solidarity with. All of those things. And I talk about working class and poor white people. My experience, I don't want to speak on anybody else's experience, but affirming that reality, asking questions and leading with relationships are how you have these conversations.

John: Hey, Ryan, I know in our class we talked a little around Robin DiAngelo's book, White Fragility. What, not to summarize her book, but just in your view, why is it hard for white people to talk about race?

Ryan: Yeah, shout out to Robin. The book is amazing, very, very important tools for understanding race. So if you haven't picked up white fragility, please do so. But she does a great job of talking about it. Why is it so hard? Is because forever we've been told that racists are bad people and therefore, if you perpetuate racism or you're involved in inflicting racial harm, you're a bad person. And that's just not the case. And if you believe that, of course, you don't want to be seen as racist or you're not even going to consider the fact that you're perpetuating systems or policies or practices that have racist outcomes. And so you can see that move within Stanford from the beginning with Dr. Ibram Kendi and how to be an anti-racist, trying to move the dialogue and the understanding away from being personal character flaws and more towards worldviews, ideas, policies, and systems that shape us and socialize us, and that nobody is free from this. Nobody's free from this. But as long as we keep talking about it as personal, bigoted, prejudices, and therefore accepting things like, well, we don't know what was in his heart to shut down a conversation about something that clearly was racist, it's going to remain very difficult to have the conversations if we can say, you know what? This has actually nothing to do with my moral compass or my personal character. This is the world I was socialized in. So of course I'm going to perpetuate these things and then every time I get called out on it is a learning experience. It's a chance to grow. And Robin says this, we should be thanking, we should be thankful for those opportunities. Anytime somebody can point out a way that we can be better, we should be thankful for it. And that is how we should frame conversations about race and our own collusion in racist systems.

Devon: Brian, I know that we're running out of time, but one other quick question for you. I know that this moment has seemed to have galvanized momentum around dismantling a system that has prioritized to a certain extent, systemic racism, racial injustice, and opportunities disenfranchisement to a certain extent. And we've seen organizations, businesses, major corporations, start to finally come around to realizing how significant a problem this is in our country. And I know that you've certainly seen countless businesses post hashtag Black Lives Matter on Facebook and Twitter and LinkedIn and Instagram, and we've now, we're into a bit of a wave of companies that are recognizing Juneteenth this year. However, I'm curious as to your take on what are some of the more meaningful approaches that organizations should really pursue if they're serious about breaking the cycle of white privilege?

Ryan: Yeah, so there's a few things. I think organizations need to create the environment for anti-racist action and create the environment for anti-racism to exist. So too many organizations are reaching out and looking for a checklist. What do we do? How do we hire more black people, for example? Well, just hiring more black people and placing them in a racist environment is going to is and will inflict racial harm and is not equity is not justice. We need white people to do their work so that people of color do not have to spend the emotional labor of teaching us how to be better people and how to not be racist. We need to do that work. So point blank, corporations, organizations need to engage that work seriously. Second, they need to look at paying people. They need to support reparations. It might be the most radical thing that's been on this podcast, I don't know, but there is absolutely no reason that African-American people, black people do not have reparations. Our country is built on wealth directly tied to slavery, no matter if you're in the north or the south. Those things, we need to take bold stances on policies like that, and we need to not be afraid to name specifically mitigating racial harm. And so this rising tide lifts all boats. Narrative is false, right? One, we've seen that the gaps actually increase, they don't decrease at all, and net worth and all that, it doesn't. It's there's no rising tide, and it's certainly not lifting all boats. We need to be unapologetically mitigating racial harm. And what does that look like? That means being intentional about asking how is this impacting black people? How is this impacting Latinx people? How is this impacting native people? Right? A return, we're on stolen native land, a return of any public land that's not being used right now. There's so many different things that we could do that demonstrate a commitment to anti-racism and racial justice. And I think organizations play a huge role, both rhetorically and stating, we want this, but then also in practices and saying, we are going to create the environments that questions whiteness and just doesn't accept it as the norm that we must tolerate deviation from, but rather truly embrace difference. And we're going to build the skills to navigate conflict constructively and productively. I firmly believe the deepest relationships I have have been directly the result of conflict of positive, constructive conflict, because we're different. Everybody's different. So of course, there's going to be differing perspectives that put us into conflict. Conflict doesn't have to mean end of relationship and bad people. And so organizations play a huge role in that.

John: Ryan, I really thank you for, boy just so many, so much perspective, so much insight, and certainly coming from your perspective, we all can learn so much more. Lots to put into play. Just a quick question before we wrap up. How can people sign up for Re-Imagining Whiteness and how can people get in touch with you?

Ryan: Yeah, great question. So right now we are looking at opening up another section of Re-Imagining Whiteness. We've had two full right now, so I'm so excited about that. There is the political will and the personal will to do this work, but we will be opening up another one. You could sign up for it by following me on Twitter, which is @Ryan612NE, or on Facebook, Ryan. Yeah. And if you guys have contact information from the podcast, feel free to share any of my contact information with any of your listeners.

John: Will do. Ryan, thanks for coming in. And Devon, it's great to co-host with you today.

Devon: Thanks, Ryan.

Ryan: Thank you, John. Appreciate it. Yeah, thank you guys for having me. It was a pleasure.

Devon: Pleasure was all ours, man. Thank you.

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producer is Ali McCardell. This podcast is available on Apple Podcast, Google Play, Spotify, Stitcher, PodBean and reedsmith.com.

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome.

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