Transcript:

Intro: Hi, I'm John Iino and I'm Iveliz Crespo. Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast. Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions and challenges, past and present, all with the goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included. 

John: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the podcast. Today we've got a great topic to cover. We are celebrating and Commemorating International Pronouns Day, which is October 20th and we couldn't think of a better guest to talk about the importance of pronouns and what organizations are doing and, and, and just so many different things than our co-host Iveliz Crespo. So Iveliz, I know we're putting you in a different role this time as opposed to the interviewer, you're the guest, but uh great to have you today. 

Iveliz: Well, thanks for having me, John. I'm happy to be in the hot seat this time. 

John: I know you put me in the hot seat the last time, right? So that's great. So let me just start off with the, you know, the powerful personal stories, you know, our audience I think is, you know, very familiar with you in terms of being a, a host and such a great interviewer of, of all of our guests. But let's talk about you a little bit. Uh in part of your, you know, your personal story, we know that uh well, maybe our audience doesn't know that you're a lawyer. You're, you've been an adjunct professor at, at uh two law schools and now you're um DEI professional. So tell us a little bit about your journey uh before joining us and you know how you got to where you are. 

Iveliz: Yeah. So, and I, you know, I don't think I've ever, I haven't talked about this on the podcast, but I'm, I'm from Camden, New Jersey. I was born and raised in Camden and I'm not sure if you're too familiar with Camden or if the listeners are, but it's a place that's known for its high poverty rates and it's high crime rates and it's also a place that, you know, is just a victim of over policing, right? And poverty related charges. Growing up in Camden, which I'm very proud of, I'm really happy to be from that city, right? And I take great pride in being from that city for various reasons. But growing up, I couldn't help but notice, you know, all of the things that were wrong with the justice system, right? I would see family members and neighbors getting discriminated against and being told that they couldn't speak Spanish on the job. I would see, I had family members getting, you know, harassed by police and stopped and frisked and thrown in jail for things like loud music. Right? And then not being able to pay traffic violations. And when you grow up and you see that it's kind of hard to not see the disparity and just how broken the system is and how it takes advantage of black and brown poor people before even knowing what being a lawyer was because, you know, I'm certainly the first person in my family to graduate like high school. So I didn't have role models in terms of seeing myself represented in many lawyers, right growing up. But I had this intrinsic sense of fairness. I knew that things were wrong. I knew that things needed to be made Right. And I ended up deciding to become a lawyer because I thought that that would be the best way to effectuate change, right, to represent people and, and advocate for their rights and make sure that, you know, I had a role in making the justice system more accessible, more fair. And so, you know, I decided to go to law school. I found myself really passionate about labor and employment law and, and civil rights work. I started my career representing migrant farm workers and things like wage theft, labor, and employment discrimination claims and human trafficking. And working with those populations really showed me right, that there's a lot of disparity in how people are treated in the workplace and, and and a lot of people don't know how to, how to handle, Right, a diverse workforce and how to support a diverse workforce. And then I started representing LGBT clients after leaving the farm worker project and representing LGBT clients, I saw the same thing, right? People being treated unfairly, people not having access to systems, right? And just a lot right of discrimination that these communities were facing and that really empowered me. I was doing so many trainings too, you know, in addition to representing folks, I started doing so many cultural competency training for various agencies, judges, you know, courthouses really educating people on interacting with diverse communities and how can you support them, how can you, you know, effectively represent them, you know, how can you, you know, be competent in your representation? And I got really passionate about that. And I think that, right, realizing I was doing more and more of that work as well as realizing that I came to the realization that while it felt really good sometimes when you would any time really, when you would get a great result for your client, it felt amazing, right? It feels great to help someone and to, you know, vindicate someone and have, you know, have them, you know, win their cases. But it was just such a small impact. I, you know, that one person may have gotten a result that worked for them. But the bigger issue, the bigger system that was broken was still broken and it needed to be fixed. And so I decided that I thought my talents and my skill sets would be better served in DEI right, in educating people on how to break down those barriers, how to, how to, you know, avoid harassment and discrimination, how to effectively support the advancement, right of, of diverse employees. And I'm really about that work, I stopped practicing law and I joined the city of Philadelphia as uh as their legal department's first ever director of Diversity. And once I was there, I realized that there was no going back to the practice of law for me that this is where I was meant to be and this is where I could have the biggest impact and advocate for people that look like me across various platforms. 

John: What an amazing and, and inspiring journey, you know, we are so fortunate to call you our colleague to have you part of our Reed Smith team. But I view that your work is not just impacting Reed Smith. I would be say I'm included is that the work we do is really trying to impact the legal industry and beyond. And so hopefully the, you know, the, the listeners to our, our podcast, but you know, all the work that we do is not just impacting Reed Smith, but a lot broader audience. So let's transition uh to a little bit about the topic of today specifically. You know, you've been very open about, you know, parts of your identity, I guess that's been a journey as well. But being non binary and you've led so many competency presentations, you know, to really help educate our community, our, our, our audiences about issues impacting transgender and the non-binary queer communities. But for our audience, you know, many who have not attended these trainings or may have limited knowledge, for you, what is it? What does it mean to be non-binary? 

Iveliz: That's a really good question. And I think, you know, I think in order to explain what non binary is, I kind of have to go back a little bit, you know, the gender binary, what we know as a gender binary, male and female is a Western concept, right? And it's a concept that there are only two genders, there's that male gender and then there's that female gender. But the most important thing to know about the gender binary is that it doesn't exist, right? It's a fallacy, it's not, it's a, it's a social construct, right? We created this but it does not exist and gender identity, for example, right? Is, is someone's internal sense of self. And oftentimes when people are born, their sex is determined by strictly just an assessment, right, a visual assessment of their external body parts and that is how people are determined to be male or female. But oftentimes, you know, people grow up and yeah, they identify with the sex that they were assigned at, but some people don't, right. Some people grow up and they realize that that's not who they are, that's not the sex that they identify with. And those people are trans, right? Their gender identity differs from that, that was assigned at birth and transgender, right is a big spectrum and and sometimes under that spectrum, you can find non-binary people, although some non-binary people do not identify as trans and non binary means that you either identify with a mixture of genders, right? Or none at all. And so I think that there are different ways that people are non binary, but that's the basic principle, right is that these folks are very gender expansive um like myself, right? And we don't identify as one or the other, some identify as a mixture and some identify as none. And to me, you know, that is what makes someone non-binary. 

John: And it's, it's just so intuitive is that in, in all aspects of, of life and you mentioned the spectrum, you know, think think of the spectrum of colors, there's just not black and white, you know, and all the different shades in between, you you know, you think about so many different aspects of life, look at political parts, you don't, you have people that are way left, way, Right? But you have people, you know, in between and then just to think about purely male, female, you know, black and white is just completely, you know, not, you know, intuitively, it's not with, you know, nature and the whole world we live in. So, you know, that makes so much sense. 

Iveliz: Yeah. And, and the other thing too is that, you know, non binary people have existed, you know, it's not a new thing, right? We have two spirits, right? Indigenous communities readily recognize non-binary folks. And so it really is a western concept, right? This idea of the gender binary. And you know, to me, you know, it's just a concept that was created, it's a social construct um because non-binary people have existed from, you know, since the beginning of time. 

John: Absolutely. So what do you think most people struggle with in terms of supporting the trans and non binary community? 

Iveliz: Yeah, I mean, I think that there are certainly a number of things that people struggle with. But one of the things that I think is, is big, particularly right now, given all the attention that we've seen around it are pronouns, right? And, and making sure that you're respecting people's pronouns and using the pronouns that people refer to themselves as when you're talking about them or talking to them. And I think that that is a big struggle for people. Despite that the gender binary is a social construct, it's still a construct that's taught, right? And it's ingrained in people. And so it can be really hard for people to separate what they've learned their entire lives when interacting with people. So I do think things like pronouns, particularly gender neutral pronouns are really difficult for people because it takes a lifetime of unlearning. Right? And, and, and now learning something new that he, she are not the only gender pronouns out there for people. 

John: No, absolutely. I see so many people and, you know, you and I have had so many discussions on this topic that I'm not sure that they, they don't, they're not ill intention, it's just, they're trying to unlearn, you know, the, the whole lifetime of how they were taught from grammar school. 

Iveliz: Yeah. 

John: And, you know, conjugating verbs and things like that. And it certainly there's some languages that have feminine and masculine conjugation of verbs and nouns and, and the rest as well. So just ingrained in language. 

Iveliz: Yeah. Absolutely. So, yeah, I think pronouns is big and, and some people may think, you know, it's just, it's just a pronoun how, how important can that be? But it's crucial. It's, it's a way of affirming people's identity. It's a way of showing people that you respect them, intrinsically, respect who they are by using, you know, the pronouns that they've chosen to use for themselves. So I think, you know, certainly pronouns and getting that right is something that a lot of people struggle with. 

John: That's so important because what, what, what you, you know, we've talked about a lot is that, you know, it's, it's like you say, it's respect in, in respecting the people and in their identity and just to not be, believe it's important, you know, it really doesn't show that respect for the person or just, it's signaling that person that how they identify, it's not important to, you know, that person. 

Iveliz: Yeah, it, it's certainly demoralizing, right? I mean, and the impacts that, that has people who are trans and non binary have gone their entire lives, questioning who they are and having people question who they are. And I think, you know, when, when you get into workplaces where you are supposed to be safe, right? And people are supposed to support you, it can be really damaging right? To your self esteem, to your life and, and how you feel about yourself and how you feel about others, right? It certainly, it certainly impacts you and impacts your ability to do your job. And I certainly feel that way too. I do this work for a living to, to some degree. I, I have to exercise, you know, a certain level of separation from myself because as DEI practitioner I'm supposed to educate people and bring people to the table, Right? I'm supposed to make the world, the world more inclusive, the world around me, more inclusive and exercise my privilege that way. But it can be really difficult when it's something that's so tied to who you are and intrinsic to who you are to compartmentalize that. And, and I struggle with that. I got to say that II, I speak on many events or John, you know, I speak on many panels. I speak, you know, I get asked to speak very frequently and I'm going to tell you that at least 90% of the time when I get to that panel, when I'm presenting, when I'm, when I'm doing, you know, these favors or getting paid to do this, I get misgender. And for folks that don't know, misgender refers to using the improper pronouns for people, right? So if I use am referring to me as she or her or referring to me as Mrs. or, you know, a lady or a woman, that's an act of misgender. 

John: It's even beyond pronouns, it could be referring to someone as someone's daughter or someone's sister or things like that, that, you know, you're saying, well, you're also misgender, somebody in that respect if you're able to kind of share a little bit, I mean, kind of drilling down into, you know, an example of, of, of, you know, when someone misgender, you, I can just say from our own experiences, like you say, 90% but I've been in so many meetings where, you know, somebody will talk about you and then they'll refer to, well, she's going to do this or she's doing that and I'll say, oh, Iveliz uses they/them pronouns that's outside when you're not even there. But how does it affect you if you're in a meeting or you're in a larger setting, like you say, speaking at, speaking out in front of a lot of number of people and the person introducing you says Iveliz Crespo is, you know, a lawyer DEI professional and she's a great speaker on this, this and this and we're so pleased to have her here. How does that, how does that affect you? How does that make you feel? 

Iveliz: Well, I tell you that during presentations, it takes everything in me to kind of move forward. Right? It's certainly something that completely knocks me off my, you know, my horse, Right? I'm, I'm, I'm prepping, I'm prepared and when that happens to me, it's like there's no preparation for that, you know, particularly if it's something that I've worked really hard at developing and now I'm here and I'm, I'm going to present and then I get introduced and right off the bat, particularly if it's for DEI training, which usually it is right? I immediately shut down. Right? I try really hard to push past it, you know, but I shut down. It shows me right, that people don't necessarily respect me. And I think, you know, to some degree, I expect some of that and I you know, I don't think people are going to get this correct overnight, but I think what is most egregious is when it happens over and over again. You know, there are people that I've, you know, worked with in the past or, you know, have relationships with that repeatedly misgender me, despite, you know, me saying politely many, many, many times, hey, just FYI, you used the wrong pronouns for me. I use they and them and you know, I think I have more patience, I think, right? When it's done by someone one off versus someone that's repeatedly doing it, despite me telling them because I think the repeat behavior just shows that like you do not care, right? This has been, this has been called to your attention and 100% understand that there's a learning curve. But part of, you know, being inclusive requires intentionality and and it requires intentionality for, for everyone, right? It's not just about non-binary folks, it's about being intentional about the language that you're using to make sure that you're, you know, not excluding people and you're including everyone. And when you do things like repeatedly misgender people, it impacts people's sense of belonging, right? They start questioning whether or not this is a good place for them to be, if this is a good place for them to thrive because they're not being supported, they're not being validated, they're not being seen. And that, that has a severe impact on, you know, how you view yourself in relation to that, to that organization. It causes people to leave, right? It causes people to avoid instances where they, you know, might be misgender. I just had this conversation with you where I said, you know, I might have to stop saying yes to these events because it's just, it's so rampant that, you know, sometimes, you know, you want to kind of remove yourself from the situation rather than trying to fix it because that's the easier route. 

John: And so uh you know, you, you talk about your own personal experiences and obviously you don't represent every non-binary person as well as like you said, the whole, the whole, the whole spectrum. But just to put this in perspective, you have, there's I'm sure the number of folks that you, you know, and part of your network and, and how is it affecting them and more broadly, what's the magnitude, right? And so because for organizations start thinking about, well, how many people actually are affected and, and why it's so important for organizations or just individuals to learn about this and that to, to, to start becoming, you know, better at uh respecting people's genders or pronouns. 

Iveliz: Just to put things in perspective, John 1.4 million people identify as transgender. Uh When you look at the demographics of people who identify as transgender, you see that a big portion of those people are people ages 13 to 17. And so that means that we are going to have a generation uh workforce that is either, you know, you're either gonna encounter people who are trans or you're going to encounter people who know someone who's trans. So it's really about preparing yourself, right? You, if your organization hopes to be successful, if it hopes to leverage diversity in the way that it could, then you have to start thinking inclusively and think about the long game. You might not have anyone who's transgender in your workplace now. But chances are in the next couple of years, you sure will. And so, you know, it's about, it's about thinking about how do you create a space where people can come and be successful and you don't need to have someone there that's trans in order for you to start thinking about these things because chances are, you know, they're in the pipeline. 

John: Yeah. No, no, absolutely. And I know we want to get into what some organizations are doing right now in terms of respecting their, their colleagues and, and, and techniques and, and, and protocols and the like, but give us our uh our audience. Uh you know, some of them, I guess I'd say signals, you know, how, how will people know that your pronouns? Are they them or that you identify as non-binary, right? So just someone that meets you or see you on a Zoom says, oh, well, you know, Iveliz appears in gender expression is female. And so I'm going to refer to Iveliz as she. But what, what, what are the cues that people can, can pick up on in terms of Iveliz pronouns would be they/them. 

Iveliz: I think the way to think about it is, is less of cues because we don't want people making assumptions, right? That's the worst thing we can do is is looking at people and visibly categorizing them in a certain way, right? Because as you pointed out, I may be non binary, but I am very femme presenting. I wear lipstick. Yeah, I wear makeup, I do my nails. I'm very we would traditionally call right femme presenting. And so it's hard to look at people and you know, say you're non binary. So I think rather than trying to identify people who are non binary, I think we need to start normalizing the conversation around pronouns and making a part of our introductions even when we know that somebody is not non binary or trans, you know, making it a part of what you do, normalizing it, having it in your email signature, putting it on your Zoom profile. I mean, I think there's certain indicators, right? Particularly for myself, for example, I have my pronouns everywhere because it's just so rampant. So I now have it on my Zoom account. I have it on my email signature on my LinkedIn on my on all social media platforms. But again. Right? That's just me, you know, some people are not as comfortable doing that or don't feel the need to do that. And so we want to stay away from like making assumptions. And I think the best way to do that to make, to make, making sure that you're being inclusive and being an ally is just to make it your standard practice. Hey, when you're introducing yourself at a meeting for the first time, say, hey, my name is, you know, for example, John, I use he him pronouns because if there is somebody who's non binary in the room, it feels so much more arming to hear your cisgender colleague say that these are their pronouns and it takes that it takes that burden off of you, right? That fear off of you that you know, this is not normal, this is not going to be accepted. And so I think really what we need to start doing is just normalizing this and making it part of our standard introductions um making it a part of our company culture because it is hard to tell, right? Gender identity and gender expression couldn't be more different. And so we just we just have to be better about making it a standard practice to normalize this behavior in these conversations. 

John: Yeah. No, fantastic. And as you mentioned, you introduce yourself almost in every encounter that I know with new, new folks. I am Iveliz and I use they/them pronouns and I would say to our audience that if somebody does, you know, introduce themselves, pay attention to that, right? And pay attention to that introduction because they're telling them something about themselves that's important to them. So listen, and I think that, you know, folks that maybe see the on the zoom, they'll see the pronouns in the next to the name or they'll see it in the email signature or someone introduce themselves that way. But, you know, not listening frankly is, is probably the biggest, biggest issue there. And so people just would just recognize that OK, this person's pronouns, are they them? Let me make sure I I'm, I'm, I'm respecting that. So let's move into. So what, what we're seeing some organizations do. Um I know at Reed Smith, for example, I was really proud and pleased when we came out with our pronouns policy, which meant a number of things that maybe you can talk about that. What, what, what we did in terms of raising the visibility of persons pronouns. I was pleased to put into my email signature, for example, and on my firm directory, you know, my pronouns. But what, what, what, what um what, what are the things that we've done and get into what some other companies are doing as well? 

Iveliz: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, normalizing pronouns is huge and I think pronoun policies and things like that are really, really important because it makes it so that, you know, everyone has an opportunity to share their pronouns and it takes the pressure off of people who are already very marginalized and already have a sense of, I don't know if I belong here. I think it's almost 50% of people. LGBT people in the workplace are, are closeted, right? And so this is a way for it to normalize the conversation and make it so that more and more people, you know, have an understanding for why it's important. What I think I like most about the policy at Reed Smith is that they didn't just come out with a policy, right? They came out with an explanation for why it matters because what you see and I do these trainings frequently. So I see it pretty frequently is there's a resistance to change, right? There's a push back that people give when they don't understand in something. And so it's really important right? To lead with education because it's, it's simple enough and it's easy enough to say, well, people should just google it, Right? But at the end of the day, right, what I really loved about the policy was that it did that it explained what the need was and why we were doing this and it didn't just say here's a policy, right? It explained it, Right? So that people had an understanding of why it was important and why they should show their allyship in this way, you know, and, and some of the other things I like about Reed Smith. You know, we, we, we intentionally recruit, you know, people that, you know, are diverse. Right? And, um, I'm really proud to say, you know, we have more than just one non-binary person working at Reed Smith, which I don't know if many organizations can say that particularly, you know, law firms that are of our size and our stature. Right? Certainly a nonprofit. It's, uh, you know, particularly in those LGBT nonprofits, you'll see a large percentage of folks, you know, I come from that background too and, and, and that's understandable, right? People gravitate to where they feel safe, but it is affirming to see, right? That Reed Smith prioritizes it in this way and, and shows that, you know, in the recruiting efforts, you know, so one of the things I was also really proud about is that been asked to give several pronouns presentations, right? Some to our recruiting teams, some to our hiring teams. Um and people just really welcome the information and always walk away saying they learned something they didn't even think about before. And that's really the goal of what we do, right, is, is teaching people and bringing people to the table so that we can create a more inclusive law firm. 

John: Yeah. No, absolutely. And it's my hope that because of all the things we're doing, not only we recruit more people, but people that are even within the organization, feel safe to, you know, to come out with their pronouns. And, um, you know, obviously that's, you know, a, a really big, you know, a big step but we, we know that there's a number of people out there that just don't feel comfortable, you know, expressing that within the workplace. So, you know, what a great day it will be when we have, you know, people that move, you know, they, they, they come out in terms of their pronouns. 

Iveliz: Yeah, I mean, I get a lot of inquiries from like students that are interested in who are preparing to enter the, you know, labor market, some, some in the legal industry. And one of the questions that I routinely get from non binary students is, you know, what do you do about your pronouns? Like, how, how accepting were people when you started, you know, sharing your pronouns with people when you started using they/ them pronouns. And so that's something I routinely get asked and it, it, to me shows that fear that people have, you know, and it's, it's sad I've been there. I know exactly what that feels like to feel like you're nervous about telling the world who you are for the sake of a job. Right? And, and I'm happy to say, you know, that I report, you know, at Reed Smith, I feel pretty included, right? I don't think everybody gets it right all the time. But at the very least I know that, you know, people care and are there to support. 

John: So that's a good question. And, or let's talk about some ways that, you know, folks within organizations as individuals generally can support their colleagues, friends, relatives, uh, and the, like in, in, in these communities. 

Iveliz: Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, on the individual level, the biggest thing that we need is people to be more upstander. We need people when they see behavior that's not inclusive when they see misgender and when they see people getting dead named, they speak up and they say something right? In the same way as that John, you do a really good job of this, right? When I'm misgender, you point it out to people. One of the reasons that it's important to have allies, you know, pointing it out is because it's exhausting as a non bin person to consistently have to fight for your identity, right? And, and it can be demoralizing and you know, and there's also the power dynamic, right? You have the majority, you know, infringing upon, you know, and oppressing the minority. So there is that dynamic and so it's always helpful to have allies who can help tip the scales, right to say, hey, I don't, you know, and, and what I appreciate about some allies, right is that you don't have to make it about the person. You don't have to say this made Iveliz uncomfortable. You can say this made me uncomfortable because it doesn't in, it's not in line with your values, right? Because people always say another question I get is how do I avoid being a busy body? How do I avoid people telling me to mind my business? And I see you got to stop looking at it like it's something that's happening to someone else because it's something that's happening to you and everyone else that's in that culture, right? One that's in that workforce that's impacting them, whether you see it or not, it is, it is impacting the culture. And so it's really important for, you know, people to stand up and, you know, and point that out to people and they don't, you don't have to be aggressive, right? It's as simple as, hey, just FYI, you misgendered them. So, and so you misgender Iveliz, you know, they use, they/them pronouns and that's it. It's just, you know, it doesn't have to be an uncomfortable conversation and you can make it less uncomfortable, right? If you're the one who brings it up as an ally versus the person who's being marginalized in that moment, having to step up for themselves because that's a lot to put on someone. 

John: Well, I love that. So, uh in, in making it how it affects me. So, hey, so, and so Iveliz uses they/them pronouns and that makes me uncomfortable when you misgender them. 

Iveliz: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's as simple as that, right? Because that's not what you stand for and that's really appreciative. So I think at the individual level that is certainly what people can do, right? We need to be more upstander. We can also drive inclusion, right? When you're sitting around those dinner tables with your family members and people are making anti trans, right? Or anti LGBT jokes, say something. That's the only way we're gonna, you know, counteract these negative stereotypes that are out there about non binary trans and other members of the LGBT community. Um So really important, right? You know that you're, you actually you look at your spheres of influence and you're trying to create change within that. And I think, you know, on the organizational level, there's a lot of things that people can do to be more inclusive, you know, leaders can do to be more inclusive and you know, policies that organizations can, you know, implement uh to drive inclusion, you know, one is pronouns, but also making sure that you're, you know that the documents that you use your standard forms that they're all, you know, looked at periodically and monitor for inclusive language, right? And gendered language which exists on so many forms is not inclusive. I was just there was just a job description that I saw and it was for a DEI position and on that job description, it said he or she will be responsible for it. And I said to myself, well, isn't that just such a waste? Right? Because it's such an unnecessary way to phrase it. It's so easy to say this person will be responsible for. It's an unnecessary thing to have he or she there. But again, it's everywhere, right? It's in our pleadings as lawyers oftentimes they're in our pleadings and, you know, our standard pleadings that we have to adapt, right? But that's usually in there, right? We see it in a lot of our, you know, policies. And so we need to start thinking about, you know, where are some of the ways places that gendered language appear? How can we change that into gender neutral language to make it more inclusive? So that's one I think, right? It's just periodically assessing, you know, your language, your marketing, uh your forms and and some of the other things that you can do, right is making sure you're supporting, you know, employees that exist within your organization, having giving them a space, right? Creating employee resource groups. You know, we're talking about a very small percentage of the population that already is feeling very stigmatized and marginalized and is often lacking in community. So one of the biggest things that you can do is help create that community. And so I think leaning on employee resource groups and creating that community for people is vital for the wellness of your employees. And then also just thinking about trans inclusive health care and then implementing things to drive inclusion like pronoun policies is really important, right? What Reed Smith did recently with their pronoun policy is great training people on, you know, how to hold people accountable. What happens, right? If you have a situation that someone is persistently getting misgender over and over again, intentionally, how are you going to handle that? When does that rise to the level of something that needs to be raised up the ranks to HR right? So thinking about those things in the same way that we would think about, you know, if someone said, you know, something derogatory, we would know immediately that has to be brought up the ranks. That's not OK. We need to normalize that, right? Particularly around things like intentional misgender. 

John: Yeah. No, absolutely. So so much, so much here and we could, we could talk about this topic, go on and on and on. But Iveliz, thank you for sharing your own experiences. You're sharing your incredible knowledge with our audience. Um I hope our audience will commemorate International Pronouns Day on October 20th as well. Not only this year but going forward because it's just as you say, it's just so important but you know, so important for our society and as we see our, you know, next generations coming up, you know, it will be so important for the workforce. Thank you again, great playing different roles today. 

Iveliz: Yeah, thanks for having me, John. 

John: Yeah. Absolutely. 

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producer is Ali McCardell. This podcast is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, Stitcher, PodBean, and reedsmith.com. 

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers. 

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