Transcript:

Intro: Hi, I'm John Iino and I'm Iveliz Crespo. Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast. Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions and challenges, past and present, all with the goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included.

Iveliz: Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the podcast. Today, we are joined by Geoff Young partner in Reed Smith's Global Commercial Disputes Group. Geoff also serves as Reed Smith's executive director of diverse recruiting where he leads the firm's strategy for identifying and hiring diverse attorneys in accordance with the firm's racial equity action plan. Geoff’s been in that role for just over a year. Today we're also joined by our co-host John Iino. 

John: Hey Iveliz. 

Iveliz: Hey, John, how are you? 

John: Great and hey, Geoff, good to see you, man. 

Geoff: Hey. 

Iveliz: So Geoff, why don't you go ahead and you know, one of the things that we like to do and we like to start off the podcast is to get people to share their powerful personal stories and we do this because we find to those stories we often find more things in common than what we knew initially going in. And so why don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit about yourself? You know, I'm curious, why did you decide to become a lawyer? And you know, why did you decide to, you know, shift your focus and, and have such a strong commitment to DEI. 

Geoff: Appreciate the, the question Iveliz and thank you for having me. I'm glad to be part of this great podcast feature that, that you and John have developed. So I, I think, you know, one of the things that, that led me down this, this legal path is frankly, coincides with kind of my intuitive focus on diversity within the profession. So I was probably pretty young, maybe a middle schooler when I first started to think about what life as a lawyer is like. And, you know, I guess I should begin that. I, I grew up in Kentucky, my accent is, is barely noticeable these days. I've lived in New York too long, but I grew up in pretty rural parts of Kentucky, you know, tobacco farms and, and the like, and you know, there weren't too many lawyers I witnessed, but you would see them on TV. And, and certainly high profile cases when they, they were on TV a lot, you would, you would see lawyers in action and obviously to a young person when I was at the time, very noble profession looked like a great, a great gig. Uh It was only when I got older and frankly in college, when I started to, to really delve into what that actually entails in terms of going to law school, what do lawyers do in the profession? And so I actually took a job when I was in college working in the law library at the University of Kentucky as an internship. And so I would spend that time talking to professors, the librarians, law students trying to really hone in on what, what they did and what they planned to do uh out as professional lawyers. And so one of the things that early on in that kind of research phase I, I learned is there's not that many black lawyers or frankly nonwhite lawyers. And granted, I was, I was in Kentucky, which um at that time, the university was think 90% white was the demographic. So, you know, it wasn't as if I was in this bastion of diversity, but also I was acutely aware of underrepresentation within the profession. So there were projects I even did when I was an undergrad to just, you know, from my mindset, I was trying to figure out why there's this gap. And, and so one of the projects I undertook was on the idea that frankly, a lot of people didn't know that they could be lawyers because, you know, I never thought of that as a young person so I ended up going to a bunch of local law schools really trying to encourage, you know, black and brown folks to just think about life in a profession and as lawyers and, and was really trying to entice all of them just to apply and think about it because it wasn't, it wasn't something I personally thought of when I was younger either. So, so those, those kind of journeys kind of coincided um in those early days of trying to figure out, you know, frankly how I could become a lawyer and then how to diversify the profession, you know, after undergrad, I went to, to law school at Cornell and then left Kentucky, I think mostly behind and, and then migrated to New York City thereafter. So I just continued the, the work that I was doing in various different capacities. I think the executive director of diverse recruiting role is frankly one of the the larger roles I've had in this space. A lot of the work I do is really kind of much more, I think one on one in nature and, and kind of smaller settings where I try to help people individually trying to navigate the profession. But uh this is certainly a role where I get a lot of opportunity to make big change and and certainly appreciate it. 

Iveliz: You said something really interesting to me, right? And it was that you became acutely aware of the underrepresentation in the field pretty early on. And I think that's something in a piece that a lot of people miss, right? That we look at the problem with the pipeline and we say things like, yes, biased, systemic racism, all of those things are true. But when you look at it also, I think the issue that there's a bigger issue of this, not a bigger issue but an equal issue of underrepresentation, right? If you don't see self reflected in an industry, then you don't realize that you have an ability to enter that industry and be successful within it. So I do think, you know, it's something that's often overlooked, you know, representation matters, you see the hashtag on social media, but how many people really understand what that means and even within the industry, you know, I resonate with that because, you know, when I, when I entered the profession, I also became acutely aware just how underrepresented, you know, people like us, right? People of color or, you know, people who are diverse, how underrepresented we are. And I think that that that alone has this psychological impact on you after a while and this and creates this desire to search out and look for community. So I really appreciate you, you touching on that because I do think it's something that, you know, people say representation matters, but they don't really understand the impact and what what the impact is when you see yourself represented as an attorney in the industry. 

Geoff: No. Absolutely. Iveliz, I can certainly identify with the lack of representation in my own career. My first firm, uh by the time I left that firm after about 10 years, I was the senior most Asian American there and there were no Asian American partners in the firm. So, you know, I guess, in fact, I had to be the role model for the representation for others and there certainly was no one in my circle that I felt, they know it was what I could look up to. So certainly identify with that. Yeah, and I, I think the other thing I would add to that point of least is there's not only a psychological impact for lack of representation, but, you know, for, for lawyers, I mean, we're a profession who loves precedent, right? So if you've never seen anyone achieve success at the higher ranking, higher levels of your firm, I mean, it's, it's hard to see yourself as the barrier breaker, right? I mean, if there's no one who's kind of set the precedent, then, you know, it's very easily hard for you to recognize that's an option available to you. So it is really important to see folks who've not only uh achieved success but also, you know, the upper levels of the firm. And, you know, I think one of the challenges and maybe we'll get to this next is um is, is really for the profession to, to really do more to embrace and celebrate the diversity of, of folks because it, because representation I think has significant still because it, it's still so woefully low, but there's other ways to tackle some of those psychological and, and just frankly practical reasons why people want to see people like themselves if, if you otherwise are feeling engaged and included, I mean, I think some of those issues kind of fall by the wayside or at least less, less priority because you're feeling like a, a successful part of the, the operation. 

John: 100%. Geoff, agree with that. I've got some statistics here that I thought I'd share with the audience and want to get Geoff your, your take on it. But, you know, we've certainly seen in more recent times or recent year, a significant growing commitment to D&I across our industry and, but at the same time, you know, there's, there's been a lot of lack of progress we saw in the ABA’s annual profile for the legal profession. You know, the demographic for black attorneys in particular has remained unchanged over the last 10 years in 2011. So 10 years ago, 4.8% of the US attorneys were black. And then if you look now at 2021 it's 4.7%. So it has not changed over the last 10 years. So Geoff, you know, there's obviously so many reasons why our profession is continue to struggle with increasing the diversity and, and in particular, think about representation of black attorneys. But you know, through your own personal experience as an attorney, kind of rising up to make partner and the like and now that you're the executive director for diversity recruiting, what are you seeing some of the biggest barriers contributing to why we're not seeing an increase in the number of black lawyers? 

Geoff: Yeah, I know it, it is a problem in terms of the historical percentage of representation, certainly for black lawyers. I mean, it's, it's largely unchanged from when I graduated from law school almost 15 years ago. I mean, one of the things I remember looking at law firms coming out of law school was, was really trying to figure out uh which firms were diverse, which had large representations of black people. And I, and I remember going through that exercise really in futility because there weren't, there weren't that many, really frankly, I don't think there were any amongst large law firms. So the question I've always gone back to is why. And as you said, John, it's a multitude of reasons I think from my own personal experience, there's some inherent challenges right to working in a large law firm. Just the time commitment, the level of uh of work that's expected to you the high levels of expectations of clients and, and frankly, uh you know, that's hard for anyone. I think all of those pressures that are innate in the profession itself. Certainly, in a large law firm are kind of exasperated for, for people who don't have a lot of mentors or, or folks they can easily turn to, to help navigate the stresses. You know, that was certainly, I think a challenge throughout my career. I was thankful to, to find people to kind of help me through that. But, you know, I'm a first lawyer in my family. So all the people I'm turning to are not family members, they're, they're friends and colleagues who I've kind of um clung to throughout the years and, and kind of forced, forced them to give me advice more or less. And that's a hard thing to do. And that's part of, I think the reason um just anecdotally from, from people I know who, who've chosen to take different career paths. You know, it's, they, they want to think about being a lawyer that doesn't frankly psychologically drain them and, and feel like it's shortening their life. And that's a hard thing for people to, to say, oh, let me stay in a large law firm and, and kind of sacrifice all these other things under difficult circumstances, which I think that happens to, I think, I think statistically for, for women who become mothers, you know, that there's a high rate of, of women who choose to either go off partner track or, or leave the profession altogether. But, you know, so that's I think an area where the firms definitely can, can strive and I know firms are particularly, you know, Reed Smith has different programming for, for parents to really try to treat those, um, kind of social life changes as well. But, you know, I think the, and, and not to go on and rambling here. But, uh, you know, the other issue I see is, is really around, you know, and not to be a broken record, but, you know, inclusivity, you know, that's where people start to feel part of the larger enterprise and, and they are going to stay in the profession, they're going to do what they can to uh not only find success for themselves but help people along the way. And that's, that's kind of a tricky measure for firms that are, you know, in that discussion now about inclusion. You know, I think that helps a lot in terms of improving the percentages and, and representation of, of black and other diverse people at law firm because that's that it continues to be. I think the the hardest challenge which is the law firm is very much centered around the majority and everyone else is trying to still trying to acclimate to what the majority expects of them. So I think the more we can get towards accepting and including everyone rather than having a default expectation that everyone has to kind of bend towards that's gonna help in a, in a big way. 

John: Absolutely. And then, and when we talk about inclusion, Iveliz. So I know we, you just circulated a statistic or in terms of people returning to work now that, you know, theoretically, things are opening up again, or when things actually do open up returning to work, that our black talent actually not necessarily Reed Smith, but just generally have a hard time thinking about coming back to work because of the lack of inclusivity because of microaggressions bias and things like that. And I certainly heard folks say this is that I'm comfortable at home because, you know, I've got my space and I've got my people around me and thinking about going into the workspace again and facing some of those microaggressions and biases, it's kind of preventing me from or push me to not go back as quickly as others might have hoped. So, I don't know, you can't remember the exact statistic, but it's certainly something that highlights what Geoff is saying. 

Iveliz: Uh It's a startling 97% of black professionals that responded to this survey said that they are not ready to return to offices that are riddled with racial microaggressions, discrimination and of course glass ceilings, right, opportunities for advancement are limited because of these systemic issues that, you know, plague a lot of, a lot of organizations including big law firms. 

John: Yeah, that's a starving statistic. So now that we've identified the some of the issues, um Geoff, let's talk a little bit about some of the ways we can improve the pipeline. Um What in your role as executive director of diversity recruiting? What are the things that you, you've are trying right now? 

Geoff: So interestingly almost kind of a, a full circle approach. I I think a big part of what I've tried to steer us towards is a lot of outreach. Uh which is something I did, as I mentioned back in college, just trying to let people know that there are opportunities to be lawyers and, and in this case to be lawyers at a large law firm, to segments of the population who otherwise don't hear from large law firms or not being recruited by large law firms. So one of the, so one of the first things we did was to frankly go to HBCU Law Schools, the six HBCU law schools and, and really try to get establish some partnerships, new partnerships in some cases, bolster some prior relationships uh in other cases, but, but really to talk to the, the deans and, and the student body about opportunities um at our law firm and then even more broadly in the profession. And so that's taken a few different turns. So one of the things we established it with one of our clients, um Hershey is a partnership with Southern University Law Center where we have a student from SULC, join our summer program and then spend uh some portion of the summer as well with Hershey. So we've done that now. Well, uh we've already hired our second fellow for that program, which they'll be joining in 2022. And so that's one of the programs we established really to create new inroads to diverse populations. But, you know, that's, that's in terms of increasing our representation. But what we've done in that regard is, is set up panel discussions and kind of uh opportunities to talk directly to the students about what life in a law firm looks like a large law firm. We try to give them tips on interviewing at other law firms and as well as obviously at Reed Smith, but really trying to give them some tools for success because I, I don't think that those tools were equally distributed and shared. And, and so that's part of what we've tried to do through some of our work through diverse recruiting. And I think, you know, in terms of other things we've done has really tried to, I think of more of a grassroots recruiting is again talking to populations that are so often missed in terms of recruiting top level talent, you know, that that's from going different conferences, going to different law school, affinity groups, different associations, meetings and, and really kind of diverse oriented um associations I should say, but, but really trying to speak to people directly on what opportunities exist, not only at Reed Smith, but more broadly. And frankly trying to help them find success in the profession, whether it's at Reed Smith or elsewhere. I mean, I, I think that's kind of the, the bottom line goal is, is really to help diverse people succeed wherever they are in the profession. I, I will say also the um some of the successes we've had because of our really pointed focus on recruiting Black law students is, you know, our number of summer associates who are, who identify as black has increased substantially since we've undertaken this effort. So, you know, this, I think last year was our, our largest percentage was of, of Black summer associates. And then this year, I should say next summer 2022 pois is poised to be even larger. So I think it just kind of hits the nail on the head that once you focus on some of these goals, um you're gonna find success and, and once the leadership of the firm and the resources are behind trying to achieve success, you know, you're almost certainly going to succeed. 

John: Congratulations on the success so far. Um Obviously, we're, we've increased the numbers and that's so that's proving out, you know, something that I've said, and I've heard said a lot is that when you start about the lateral market. So, you know, people that have already graduated law school a number of years ago and that we try to bring in laterally, you know, the challenge right here is that, you know, we've seen people leave and people come and ultimately, if you, if you have a finite pool of people you're chasing, it's a game of musical chairs, right? It just one person leaves and comes out, they go to this firm and that firm takes someone from this firm and you just, you're just shuffling around the same talent. And so the, the, the, the solution in my mind for a lot of recruiting is you've got to broaden your look and who you were, who you're looking at, right? And so like you're saying, with, you know, at the law school level, let's go to HBC, let's go to a lot, a lot of different places where there's great talent that previously, you know, big law firms like us wouldn't go to some of those places. And the same thing when you're talking about lateral talent, you know, there's some great talent out there that why are we only looking at big firms and trying to poach people from other big firms? There's some great talent in there that in, in a, in a variety of different places that we could imagine to bring in. And the challenge I think when people bring in laterals and I think like lateral partners is they're always like looking at, ok, the book of business and things like that. But if you take those people that are say at a smaller firm or, or coming from in house or from government. And like you can't apply the same metrics that you would as someone laterally coming in, you know, from another big firm. So what you have to do is project out, Ok, well, this person is at a small firm, what would they do within a big firm or this person is in house or this person working for the government? What could they do with our, our, our, our resources and that really can help, you know, expand the talent base as opposed to chasing the same people all the time. 

Iveliz: You know, I think that's a question we get often, Right? When we do these trainings, when we have these conversations around DEI, we get this, this response that, well, what if there's no talent? Right? There's just not enough talent and I think that that's, that's not true. Right. That it's just that we have a limited way and a limited spaces in which we look for talent and we're often competing with others. And I don't know, Geoff, if you have any thoughts around that, I'm sure you get that question a lot right. Regarding that talent pipeline. 

Geoff: Yeah. No, it's, uh, it's, it's, it's an age old problem. If you can't find, you know, diverse talent. The follow up question is, well, where are you looking? Right? Like if you only look at one source and obviously you, you've already put the blinders on, on to what you find acceptable. So, you know, I think, you know, there's a couple of different ways we've tried to tackle that is, is as previously mentioned, broadening where we look for talent. Secondly, is to rethink, you know, what is a, what does a successful lateral look like? Right. And to, to your point, John, it's it's not always evident from looking at metrics or at least, you know, book of business. I mean, there's there's contributions that go well beyond in metrics in terms of determining who is a successful hire. I think, you know, we are kind of on that journey too. II I think we are in the midst of a talent war and the legal profession being kind of close, I think collectively to burn out. So there's there's other considerations that are layered on top of kind of the normal recruiting process. But, but I think contributions kind of beyond those, the Book of business and, and, and those types of metrics is, is gonna be kind of, I think the next wave of really great recruiting and, and finding people who are not only successful in their own, right, but are really additive to the culture of the law firm and, and in a positive and meaningful way. So, you know, that's kind of where I certainly see our sites headed next. And, and you know, we, we got obviously like many law firms priorities that require uh filling demand as it is right now. But um but that is kind of the next wave and, and it goes to how the accounting firms I think already kind of approach recruiting um you know, with, with the behavioral questioning and, and, and things of the nature to really get at, who are you as a person and how do you fit with, with the larger scope? So I think the profession is getting there, but we're, we're just uh slowly, slowly getting there. 

John: And as a shout out to our colleague, Liza Craig who hosts the Government Contracts Coffee Break podcast on the Reed Smith channels. Liza is a perfect example of, you know, going to find talent in, in different places. Liza came to us from the Department of Navy and the legal department and Department of Navy. So literally had no client base or book of business to bring to Reed Smith. And I'm so proud that effective January 1, she'll be an elected partner. So it's, you know, it's just a fantastic story that, you know, you can find great talent out there like our colleague Liza and, and they are out there. 

Iveliz: So Geoff, you know, as we wrap up here, uh I guess one of the questions I have for you is, you know, what advice do you have for budding diverse lawyers that may be beginning their career. And then also if you have any words for some lateral attorneys that might be looking for transition to transition from their current place. Uh if you have any insights that you can share with those folks and words of encouragement. 

Geoff: Certainly. So I guess tackling the, the budding diverse lawyers, I, I think, and I'll, I'll just use myself as an example. So I view myself and I still do to this day is fairly introverted. So one of the things I, of the many things I had to work on as I was maturing, it is to really kind of view my role as a lawyer is, is to be much more of an extrovert, not necessarily beyond what I find acceptable, but, um, you know, just pushing boundaries a little bit, get, get a little more uncomfortable, but also making sure I'm not only doing well for my clients, but also, you know, my own personal path, no one feeds a closed mouth, right? Is, is the saying. So you, you have to take opportunities to self promote and, and self, you know, advocate. So, you know, that's something I think for, for young lawyers, particularly I think for people who've had a lot of success through school, right you know, school work that doesn't always necessarily mean you are a great at advocating for yourself. It means you've done well academically on tests and kind of those quiet moments where people are testing you on what you know. Right? So, you know, I, I did well on that, but on some of the other pieces I had to certainly kind of round out and, and so I think for, for diverse lawyers, I think that is particularly important because it's too often where if you are not advocating for yourself, then no one is, Right? So it's important for, I think the first lawyers to think about how to not only advocate for themselves, but certainly to connect with people who will over time do that advocacy for them. And then in terms of laterals, you know, I I think, and, and again, I'll use myself as an example, but the lateral market is obviously um very hot right now. But one of the things that I think lateral, particularly diverse laterals spend should spend a lot of time thinking about is where they feel comfortable where they feel like they have the runway and flexibility to really achieve, you know, what they would find or define as success. So that's, you know, that's not the case at every firm, right? I mean, some are more rigid than others. I I think for myself as an example, I think there are clients who've been very, very good for, for me during my career. But, you know, they're not always necessarily institutional clients. And so you, you want to make sure you're at a place where that's going to be welcoming of, of that type of client development, but also give you the runway to um you know, have, have those learning moments and and recover from them and continue to be on your path, so to speak. So it's a challenge, I think in a, in a very hot market, right? Where, where there are definitely law firms throwing a lot of money at people. That's, that's harder to see. But, you know, at the end of the day it's your, it's your career and you have to be in control of it and frankly take ownership of what you want it to look like, you know, easier said than done, I think. But it is something I, I spend a lot of time talking to recruits about is just thinking about where you want to be long term and where you think you'll have the most opportunities to provide a meaningful impact and, and be successful. So, you know, that's something I, I harp on quite a bit with, with recruits and, and thinking about what they would want to do. But yeah, it's, it's a challenge I think in the current moment. But, um, but overall, I mean, look, it's, it's how I've kind of led my path as well. And it's, it's been, uh it's been good for me. I mean, it's nothing is, uh I always say there's no perfect firm, right? What you're striving for is, is a place where you can get as, as comfortable and kind of run, run the route that's gonna be successful for you. 

John: Great words of wisdom, Geoff really appreciate you coming in, uh today, sharing your, your experiences and best practices uh with our audience. 

Iveliz: Thank you so much, Geoff, really appreciate having you on. 

Geoff: Well, thank you both and love to do it again sometime. 

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production.Our producer is Ali McCardell. This podcast is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, Stitcher, PodBean, and reedsmith.com. 

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers. 

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