Transcript:

Intro: Hi I'm John Iino. And I'm Iveliz Crespo. Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast, Inclusivity Included: Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions and challenges, past and present, all with the goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included. 

Iveliz: Hey folks, welcome to the podcast, as always, my name is Iveliz Crespo and I'm joined by our co-host, John Iino. Hey John. 

John: Hey Iveliz. 

Iveliz: And today we have a very special guest that will be joining us today, a friend of mine and a colleague of mine from law school and someone who has been doing a lot of amazing work trying to highlight the issues that people with autism experience in their professional lives and in their personal lives. So we're joined by Courtney Munnings. Courtney is an autistic and dyslexic commercial litigator at a top 50 U. S. law firm. She is an advocate for diversity and inclusion in the legal profession and has served as a member of the barristers association of Philadelphia on their executive board for several years, helping to address the professional needs and the development of needs of black lawyers in the Philadelphia area. Courtney is a certified life coach, writer and speaker, whose areas of interest include autism acceptance, mental health, neuro diversity, disability advocacy, self-care and personal empowerment. Courtney is neurodivergent with sociability, learning attention and mood differences and is committed to promoting neurodiversity and advocating for their rights, participation and inclusion of neurodivergent people and all people with disabilities. You know, Courtney, I've known you for several years um and you know, I've been catching the work that you've been doing, bringing light to this really important issue within the legal industry and beyond, right, um and really fortunate to have you join us today. So welcome to our podcast. 

Courtney: Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here. I'm honored. 

John: Courtney, It's it's a real privilege to get to meet you and thank you for all you're doing and all the work that you do on behalf of so many communities. Um it's just great to be able to, you know, expose you to our our audience and have that message get out to more and more people, A big part of what we like to do Courtney at the beginning of our episodes is to just learn more about our guests. And the title is Powerful Personal Stories. So you've been, you know, you are a litigator at a top 50 law firm. You're on the, you know, Barristers Association Board and such an advocate. But before all this, what made you consciously decide to go to law school? Did you always want to be a lawyer? 

Courtney: So no, I did not always want to be a lawyer. From the time I was a child, I wanted to be a dentist. I had designed my own office and all the rooms for the different age groups and everything. I got to Temple University and I started out as a chemistry major and I was taking all the sciences and maths and I learned slowly that those subjects were not my strengths. In hindsight, I was dyslexic and I could have been more successful if I had been able to accommodate myself back then, but I have no interest in being in people's mouths. So all is well that ends well. I was miserable taking calculus three over and over, but I switched my major to Spanish language and literature and I finally graduated after six years of undergrad including summers. I continued working as a makeup artist in retail, but I didn't love the way that I was treated, I was not treated with dignity and respect and I couldn't even be trusted if I said I was sick, you know, you have to get a doctor's note if you say you can't work. And so I knew I had to go back to school and my mother went to law school when I was in high school. So that gave me the courage to try it out. And I absolutely loved law school. Going to law school was one of the best things I've ever done. It was the most enriching and empowering thing that I've been through. And so I'm really happy with the way things turned out. 

John: It's so great to hear and and really what you're doing with your law degree as well, how you're affecting so many people as well, It's just such a fantastic story. Thank you. 

Iveliz: You know, Courtney, we're going to get to you mentioned in hindsight, had you been better able to accommodate your dyslexia and we're going to get to that, right, because I think you have a very unique story that is important for other people to hear. But before we jump into your personal story and your personal journey, you know, I've had the privilege of recently, just, you know, getting a little bit more acclimated and accustomed to the work that you've been doing. Particularly around highlighting, you know, being neurodivergent and the importance of disability inclusion. You've been vocal, right, about your recent autism spectrum disorder diagnosis and we understand that you're not a medical doctor, so I'm not going to ask you to opine on, you know, give us the medical treatise of what autism spectrum disorder is. But you know, if you put in your own words, could you share with us a little bit more about what autism spectrum disorder actually is and then we'll get into how it impacts your work. 

Courtney: Okay, so this is a really good question, and I've never actually been asked this question. It really depends who you ask what autism is. A doctor might say that autism is a neuro behavioral manifestation of developmental brain disorder. Some say it causes impairments in communication, sociability, learning, attention and mood. They'd say that a lack of social reciprocity is the core of autism or what they call autism spectrum disorder. They say autistic people can't have empathy or make eye contact or have meaningful reciprocal relationships. They say we are disordered and impaired and they might perform or recommend something called A B A Therapy. A B A therapy was created by the man who mentored the creator of gay and trans conversion therapy. So gay conversion therapy was based on A B A Therapy and A B A uses torturous methods to make your child act more quote "normal". Um, it traumatizes and it is the most commonly used and funded autism intervention. It seeks to shape normal behaviors in autistic children while extinguishing those behaviors designated as autistic. This year I had a doctor tell me he could use ketamine therapy to improve my autistic traits. I did not do that therapy.

Most autistic adults don't think we need to be improved or intervened with. We aren't searching for a cure like hate groups. We are valid and beautiful and we see our worth even if others are allowed to ignore it or just call it a disorder. We often do feel more pain than others. I can physically feel things like fluorescent lighting or idle chatter or people tap tap tapping their pens in the office. But I also have powerful joy and wonder and intrigue and enthusiasm and delight and that seems to escape most people. I'm creative. I'm a storyteller. I'm a stickler for fairness and truth. I always mean what I say. I never have ulterior motives. Autism means having a rich inner world. And for most autists, that means lacking interest or motivation to play the fake social games. We don't generally enjoy small talk or setting ourselves up to be scrutinized by others. We aren't in competition for social points. That's how people are going to say this is brave what I'm doing right here talking about being autistic and dyslexic and having O C D. Because they think I value what they value. They see me as losing my grip on something that they want, but I don't want anything that I can't have and be openly autistic. Autistic people are often called blunt and direct because we are less likely to see a reason to lie or be dishonest. But I really really love being autistic and I'm fascinated by all the ways it shows up in different people. 

Iveliz: You know I really love that. You know I think oftentimes when we hear about disorders right whether it's autism, whether it's any other kind of you know disorder, I suffer from PTSD. We always try to get really clinical, right, and that doesn't really tell us anything about people that live, right, or that identify this way. So it's really good to hear you talk about this in such a positive light, right? Because you focused on all of the amazing qualities, right? And didn't talk about you know any impairments, right? You talked about what it's like right to live this way and be authentically yourself. And so you know, I really just appreciate you sharing that with us. 

Courtney: Thank you. 

Iveliz: So Courtney, when and how, right, I know we talked about in hindsight earlier with dyslexia. But you have recently discovered, you know, that you are autistic. Can you tell us a little bit about that about your journey to self-discovery? 

Courtney: Yes. So I broke down in 2020. My life had changed drastically in the pandemic and I was stressed and drained and burnt out and then I broke. I went into the hospital. I did partial hospitalization and intensive outpatient therapy for over three months. I learned some helpful things about mindfulness and interpersonal effectiveness and distress and tolerance and emotional regulation. But I had already been pretty successful in those areas in my life. There was something missing. And so around May 2020, my good friend told me to read a thread on Twitter by Erika Heidewald and the thread set out to describe the neuro types and from then I knew. I knew I was autistic and I started reading everything I could from autistic people. I scheduled a meeting with an autistic woman named Natasha Nelson. Um and she described what autism was like and she described me. It was undeniable. I had always felt like I was an alien or just some type of very dramatic weird person. But I watched a video on YouTube about autistic women and I saw a black woman who rocks when she sits like I do and she closed her eyes sometimes when she spoke like I do. And every single thing in my life started to make sense. I've been describing to people what autism feels like ever since. Autism is not a disease. I write and talk about this every single day. It is a type of mind. We are fine. Our environments that disregard us might disable us, but we are made this way and we're meant to be this way and there's a way for life to be comfortable to us. We are not meant to act the same as other people. My essays on what it feels like to be autistic have led people to get formal diagnoses and accommodations um, for being autistic because once, you know, you know. And you know, you don't need to get diagnosed. Self-diagnosis of autism is valid because, you know, you know what it feels like, you know what you feel like. And any doctor who evaluates you for autism is going to ask hundreds of questions to figure out what life feels like for you. But all they know is what autism looks like. And they usually know what it looks like on white CIS boys. And so it's harder to get diagnosed. And so my work is really around helping people to learn later in their life that they're autistic and they're going to be okay. 

John: Wow, that's  just amazing, so inspiring, and so admirable. Courtney, you know, for all those years, um as you mentioned, you're undiagnosed. So during that time, you know, how did your autism impact your work? And I'm curious, you know, since you diagnosed  after May 2020, how has your work been different now that you understand, you know, your condition? 

Courtney: So, first of all, autism is the reason why I got this job in big law anyway. The interview process back then at my firm was getting a hypothetical fact pattern and spotting the issues there in the interview and mine was about NFL concussions and a class action being brought and having to defend the NFL and I happened to have won the award for the highest aptitude in average in torts um at Rutgers in Camden. And so it was absolutely my favorite topic and I was able to just monologue about this situation and all the questions I would ask and all the thoughts I had. And I was able to show my personality and my knowledge in a way that didn't rely on the social rules and games and, you know, looking up the person and saying things I think they like, and you know, doing that the social dance that is usually required in an interview. So I will forever be thankful for that process. In the job, autism has affected the way that I work because it affects the way I think and communicate. And even looking back at my evaluations, they all scream autistic from the positive to the negative. People note that, you know, I incorporate their feedback. I do exhaustive research. I do an excellent job delivering opening statements and riveting a jury. I demonstrate eagerness to help. I care deeply for clients. I'm trustworthy, I have a calm confidence, I'm hardworking, dependable, earnest and eager to do the right thing. I pay attention to detail. I'm called likable with an easy personality. I'm willing to do anything you ask. Um you know, autistic people are often people pleasers, perfectionists, much better with scripts, entertainers, highly accommodating and able to achieve hyper focus. Those things worked for me.

Unfortunately, my autistic traits also led me to challenges at work. I was always so busy focusing on what was right in front of me and just literally trying to survive which is common for autistic people. So I didn't learn the social side of things or the culture. I did not know the unspoken rules of just staying at the office late at night until the partners went home, even if you asked if there was gonna be a meeting. I would only be told these rules after I had already disappointed someone and that was always devastating. Letting people down can be very, very, very difficult on an autistic person. So being at a workplace where you must intuit what supervisors want from you is extremely hard on me and you know, I did not find mentors who just tell you ahead of time. Like this is what people want from you because of my social differences. I don't find sponsors who will make it their business for me to be successful because no one sees themselves in me. And so, you know, because I lack the social behaviors to gain that investment, I'm behind and I'm on my own in a way and I think that's a shame. 

John: But it also sounds like you've been, once you appreciated those characteristics, appreciate who you are, it's helped you adjust your own behaviors and then adjust, you know, your, the way to interact with people. Has that been the case as well? 

Courtney: Absolutely. Knowing what people are calling out as the differences between autistic people and non-autistic people helps me to be the bridge where I can. 

Iveliz: Now Courtney, I just want to ask a clarifying question because you've mentioned this word a few times and I think it's very similar, well, I don't think it's similar to assimilation, but I think there's certainly some connections there between masking and then other people, right? who don't have autism spectrum disorder and assimilation. I for the audience who may not know what masking is, right? because it's a very specific term used in the disability advocacy world, maybe our listeners are unaware, would you just explain what masking is? 

Courtney: Yes. So there's a concept called autistic masking and so masking generally we all do it right. We all kind of understand certain social rules and we mask. Whether it's we get to work at nine, probably no one told you when you started like we come here at nine, but you know, you're catching the vibes and so like we were people, even people who aren't morning people find their way into the office in the morning because they're masking their natural behavior, their natural tendencies. You know, we know not to pick apart people's appearance or just, you know what's rude or not. That's all part of behaving a way to fit in socially. Autistic people are naturally different and we value things differently, but we were less likely to survive. Like literally we're in danger and we perceive this from a young age. Masking can start at six months. And so we're subconsciously or unconsciously picking up what other people are doing and becoming more like that. And you know, I've been doing it my whole life. I didn't know. My husband would tell me my accent changes depending who I'm talking to because you know, I'm, in any situation I'm in, I'm having a heightened awareness of needing to belong and needing to be protected. And so autistic people are working, especially if you're a woman, especially if you're black or a person of color. You're doing a lot of masking to try not to stand out and be too different and it leads to burnout. It's always dangerous because you're not made to be pretending to be something all the time. 

Iveliz: And thank you for that because I think, you know, you gave me, you know, some other question that I think is important to really unpack. Courtney, you and I had a call recently and you said something that really stuck with me. You mentioned that often time employers have this erroneous belief that hiring people with autism or other disabilities will have a negative impact on their work environment on their workplaces. Why? You know, and you've shared all the amazing benefits earlier, right? And characteristics that you have as someone who's autistic. But would you share a little bit more about what are the benefits particularly about hiring people with autism spectrum disorder? How do they benefit the workplace? What is it that people might not be seeing when they're holding this erroneous belief, right? That this is going to detract from their workplace. 

Courtney: So it is incorrect to think you should not hire autistic people. And that's the whole idea of neurodiversity. If you want good thorough work product, you should want different types of minds and eyes looking at it. You do not need all big picture people or all morning people or all literal people. You need a mix. Just like we mostly understand that the culture of the workplace is improved by diversity. We should be able to grasp that the work is improved by neuro diversity. It astonishes me that any field requiring zealous advocacy, steadfastness, candor, conviction, hyper focus, passion, pattern recognition, routine, resilience, fairness, deliberation, sleeplessness, stoicism, creativity, dependability, excellence, compliance and attention to detail, would not readily embrace neurodiversity and autistic people. But here we are and we should do better. 

John: I love that. It's so evident in us in the D E and I fields obviously always talk about the importance of diversity. But um just thinking about all the talents that, you know, the people with autism can bring literally focusing on that. It's saying we like you're saying we need people in that. And there's so, as we say in the in the area, especially law firms, but any organization, there's so much that, you know, every organization needs. So absolutely. It's such an important, such an important point to contain to drive home. So kind of with that in mind Courtney, you know, what should employers, organizations or even managers and supervisors do that they can make sure that we're inclusive of people who are neurodivergent or have autism or other disabilities. 

Courtney: So the first thing that people can do to be more inclusive and supportive is to stop evaluating us on our personalities and help out where you perceive difficulty. I've gotten a lot of "Courtney lacks confidence" over the years, maybe every year, but it was no one's job to just ask me if I felt low confidence or why or why I appeared uncomfortable or whatever the issue was. If a guest in your home is there and you really want them there and they appear to be uncomfortable or scared or unsure or anything, you ask them a question and you offer them relief, a coffee, a blanket, a seat, something. You don't just look at them and then send a message to the group chat a year later to say “Courtney's uncomfortable at parties.” You know, but that's what working without support can feel like for me. Like someone can see something isn't quite right for me, but it's only my fault. They're not curious about it. And the conclusion is, I just don't belong here. But no one tells me where to go. If you are an equal opportunity employer, you must accept autism, not just be aware of it, not just let people come in with it, but you must accept it. And autism acceptance is employee retention. It's equity and inclusion. It's conflict resolution. And it's suicide prevention. Lack of regard for us is disabling. And it is just a poor use of your resources. It doesn't make sense. And we have a lot of work to do in this area. 

John: Well, so on point. Quick follow up, we had mentioned earlier thinking about returning to the office. So, you know, in the hopefully post-COVID world as we start to see folks return to the office, um, can you talk in particular, you know, for folks with autism, some of the emotions or some of the challenges that they might be currently thinking about or facing returning to the offices and what should employers be aware of as we start seeing more employers requiring people to come back to the office, um, as the pandemic hopefully subsides? 

Courtney: Yes. So I actually have asked my autistic friends what is hard about working in an office and they all say really, really similar things across industries. They talk about the extra noise, um, being interrupted when they're, you know, hyper focused. Um, some people struggle a lot. They're trying to suppress their stims, which um, I hinted at, are things like rocking back and forth or pacing or doing just other self-soothing behaviors, the lighting, the sitting for long periods of time, the office politics, the team building exercise, enforced social interaction. Okay, the cold or the hot, like it's someone described it as a living hell. It's very, very difficult for autistic people to be environments, be in environments where they cannot control the temperature, the sound, the interruptions and so please be mindful. You know, some people have these hybrid policies where you can choose to come in or not, please don't take someone working from home as meaning they don't care about their job or they're not engaged. Sometimes it's the best way that they can work and it's the best thing for the company for someone to be able to be comfortable while they're working. 

John: Thank you for sharing that. It's  spot on. That's all I'd say. All employers, all supervisors, they can become aware of that and they can, you know, address the issues that you're talking about - retention, performance and things like that - if you're aware of the challenges your employees face. Absolutely, 

Iveliz: Yeah. And, you know, one of the things that I think, you know, obviously we're not going to change employers right with one podcast episode, you know, we've learned that there's so many benefits right to neurodiversity in the workplace. And we know, you know, that it's true that diversity, particularly neurodiversity, right, is very beneficial to businesses, both financially, but also creating the kind of culture that we want to create and sustain. And so one of the things I want to know from you, Courtney, I think you've spoken like a true expert on this podcast and I don't want this advocacy, you know, your skill set to stop here. So, for those people that are listening and they're looking for guidance, advice, consultation services, or resources, how can they reach you? 

Courtney: So please contact me on LinkedIn. My name on there is Courtney A. Munnings and I cannot stop talking and writing about neurodiversity and autism acceptance. So I'm happy to hear from you. I'm happy to answer questions, I'm happy to write or to show up and speak because there's nothing more important to me than teaching people about what autism is. 

John: Fantastic. Keep up all your work. We need so many more people like you, Courtney, doing the work and hopefully, you know, many of our listeners will continue to support you and build on all that you're pushing forward. So thank you. 

Iveliz: Yeah, thank you so much for for joining us. It's been really awesome to have you here and it's certainly a topic that you know, even this podcast I've learned so much about and just having you here and talking about this topic. So thank you so much for all that you're doing right to advocate for these issues and also to educate people on these concepts. 

Courtney: Thank you. This means the world to me. So I'm thankful that you would even ask me to do this. 

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producer is Ali McCardell. This podcast is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, Stitcher, PodBean, and reedsmith.com. 

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers. 

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