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Intro: Hello and welcome to Arbitral Insights, a podcast series brought to you by our International Arbitration practice lawyers here at Reed Smith. I'm Peter Rosher, global head of Reed Smith's International Arbitration practice. I hope you enjoy the industry commentary, insights and anecdotes we share with you in the course of this series, wherever in the world you are. If you have any questions about any of the topics discussed, please do contact our speakers. Welcome to our Women in Arbitration podcast mini series, a platform for women's voices across the global international arbitration community. I'm Lucy Winnington-Ingram, an international arbitration lawyer based in Reed Smith's London office. In these episodes, we will hear from leading women in the international arbitration space and discuss industry news, trends, developments, and matters of interest. And with that, let's get started. 

Lucy: Hello, I'm Lucy Winnington-Ingram, council at Reed Smith with a practice that focuses on investor-state arbitration and public international law. This International Women's Day, I'm delighted to be joined by women arbitration practitioners across Reed Smith's global platform to discuss this year's International Women's Day theme, Inspire Inclusion. Inspire Inclusion, focuses on encouraging others to understand and value women's inclusion. And when women themselves are inspired to be included, there's a sense of belonging, relevance and empowerment. I'll be joined by Elizabeth Farrell, Rebeca Mosquera, Juliya Arbisman, Vanessa Theiffry and Alison Eslick to hear their views on diversity, equity and inclusion in the legal profession as it pertains to women, and who has been a mentor in their careers that embodies the Inspire Inclusion theme. And my first guest on today's podcast is Elizabeth Farrell. Elizabeth is a partner in our Energy and Natural Resources Group in London. And Elizabeth's practice focuses on international arbitration in the commodities and energy sector. Hello, Elizabeth, how are you today? 

Elizabeth: Hi, Lucy. I'm very well, indeed. It’s a pleasure to be speaking with you. 

Lucy: Well, thank you so much for joining us. So my question for you Elizabeth is what advice would you give to young women entering the legal profession? 

Elizabeth: Big question. I mean, firstly, it's a wonderful career. Just say that, I mean, it is full of endless variety and potential. So anybody considering a career in the law, I think you're on the right track. I'd also say I can only speak to this really from the perspective of somebody in an international law firm um in London specifically. And I'd say in many ways, that kind of environment is about as progressive as you can get in a modern workplace. Um full of incredibly supportive role models and leaders who want you to achieve your potential. But uh there's still you know, a significant gender disparity in senior roles. So I would say first piece of advice is stand on the shoulders of the women who have come before us and seize every opportunity that comes to you, try to see that opportunity as a privilege and know that undoubtedly, although we work incredibly hard, the harder you work, especially earlier on in the in your career, the more luck you you create for yourself, the more opportunities will come your way. And if you invest in it, your career will always be there for you, whatever else happens in your life. And so that, that hard graft in the early years, you know, really pays off. 

Lucy: Thanks Elizabeth. And I, I mean, I have to agree. I've been incredibly lucky in my career to have some incredible female role models that I've sort of grown up underneath who have really taken me under their wing and helped to lift me up through the ranks. And I feel very privileged to have had that. 

Elizabeth: Absolutely. And it's kind of like, it's a quote by um the very different context of a career, but a quote by Serena Williams that I really like. And she talks about the success of every woman being an inspiration to another that we should raise each other up and therefore make sure that we're very courageous, be strong and be extremely kind. And I have, you know, I think that's a really, really good sort of motto to live by as a woman in, in the legal profession. Never forget though that something I have noticed is that many men have fewer hangups than many women over pushing themselves forward. Whether it be for promotion, whether it be for a pay rise, whether it be for a type of work that they would like to be doing. So I would say to any woman starting off in their career, please just don't hold back for fear of being considered too, too difficult or too undeserving. Just go for it. All I mean, by that really is, do yourself justice, talk up your accomplishments and your vision and the way you would like your career to go in a way that that gets you recognized intentionally in, in the right way. 

Lucy: I agree, Elizabeth and I think, you know, traditionally women have not maybe a not all women of course, but some women have not advocated for themselves in the way that their peers, their male peers have done. And I think increasingly there's an awareness around that. and an encouragement for young women to do that as they rise up in their careers. 

Elizabeth: Exactly. 

Lucy: OK, Elizabeth. Thank you very much. So, bonus question for today's episode is who has been your mentor? And why? 

Elizabeth: Well, I've been lucky to have a number of people who have mentored me, coached me and perhaps more importantly, championed me, you know, I couldn't possibly pick out just one because there have been at least five and certainly two or three who will, you know, recent ones who will know very, very, very clearly who they are. I'm eternally grateful to them. And as I say, I think in many ways, having a champion who will speak up for you, you know, slam the fist on the table for you in a meeting and say no, you know, I remember her or think about what she's achieved is, is just as important as somebody you can turn to for advice in a more traditional mentoring relationship. 

Lucy: I completely agree. And just to finish off, I think one thing that I would say to, you know, women coming into the profession is that those mentors, those champions can come from anywhere in the firm. You know, I actually have still have a champion who was my trainee supervisor when I was a trainee, but not in my current department. And I think that's really important to remember that as you build those relationships. Um Those can see you through your career even from very unlikely places. And my next guest on today's podcast is Rebeca Mosquera. Rebeca is a senior associate in our New York office, specializing in investment treaty arbitration. Hello, Rebeca. 

Rebeca: Hi, Lucy, how are you? 

Lucy: I’m very well. Thank you very much for joining me for your second International Women's Day podcast. 

Rebeca: Well, thank you so much for the invitation and honestly, I wish I were in London now having tea with you during this conversation. 

Lucy: Likewise, but hopefully again, soon. So Rebecca, my question for you is what are some effective strategies or practices you've seen or implemented that foster inclusivity particularly for women and underrepresented groups? 

Rebeca: So, well, Lucy, this is, this is a great question because I do believe that we all have the power to affect change whether that change is positive or negative, that really depends on us. And there is no secret that there is a patent access problem for women and under represented groups in decision making positions. According to a recent women in business report by Grant Thornton women held 35% of senior management positions in North America and 28% in Europe, but only 19% in Africa in 2021. I assume that the statistics for Latin America and other parts of the world are not any better and to exemplify how acute the issue is according to other more recent reports at the current rate of progress, if if we can call it progress, it will take about 286 years for the world to achieve gender equality. Imagine what that means for underrepresented groups. I would dare say that the problem is even more acute in international arbitration. A field known to be relatively small and extremely hard to break into. Because of this I personally and through different initiatives, I belong to like ArbitralWomen, the ERA Pledge and the ERA pledge, I have implemented many strategies and practices to move the needle in the right direction because having diverse professionals is good for business. But in international arbitration, it ensures the legitimacy of the process. And so from where I sit during the constitution of the tribunal process and the potential selection of expert witnesses. I have relentlessly provided team members and clients with lists of female arbitrators and experts with the required credential. And let's just not forget that recently uh the Compendium of Unicorns was launched. So we have a global guide to women arbitrators now very handy. And among the other strategies that I try to implement, I also believe in recognizing and promoting my colleagues accomplishments, especially women, minority groups and younger professionals. And and I believe that to tackle the issue of gender and diversity in our field, women must support each other and work together. And truly, there is no room for excuses, but we also need male allies and champions, especially from those considered an authority in our field. But truly, we don't need to look too far away. Most male colleagues play a crucial role in becoming allies and champions. And Lucy, I honestly, we're not sure of tragedies uh seeking to level the playing field for women. For example, I recently came across an initiative that should be widely adopted, I believe. And I want to thank Amanda Lee for bringing it to my attention. It's from the Association for Women in Cryptocurrency. They launch a pledge for male allies, inviting them to commit to not participating in all male panels commonly referred to as manels. And the argument is that if more male colleagues agree to speak on panels, only after organizers have confirmed gender parity, we could promote greater inclusivity and visibility for women and other underrepresented groups. And one thing that I, that, that I want that, I think it's very important I want to highlight is that Reed Smith is also a signatory to many of the initiatives I mentioned earlier. And that is a testament to the firm's commitment to gender equality, diversity, equity and inclusion and to wrap it up. Lucy, I want to end quoting my favorite, late former associate justice of the Supreme Court of the United States, Ruth Bader Ginsburg or the notorious RBG as she used to be known in pop culture. She said that um well, she said many great things and the many other extraordinary things spending much of her legal career as an advocate for gender equality and women's rights winning many arguments before the Supreme Court. She said that women belong in all places where decisions are being made. This is a powerful motto to keep in mind as we all continue to advocate for more gender parity and diverse representation in our professional lives. 

Lucy: Thank you very much for that very insightful answer, Rebecca. One thing you said really resonates with me and that goes to the relationship between diversity and legitimacy. Investment arbitration in particular is currently suffering from what is often referred to as a crisis of legitimacy. And it's so important that the decision makers are representatives of diverse groups and we have seen some progress towards this, but by no means enough. 

Rebeca: Absolutely. I agree. And, and it is known it's been proven that when you have uh diversity at panel levels or even council, you get better decisions and you also get, you know, better arguments. I read uh recently a, an article from Lucy Greenwood and where she was precisely advocating for this, and she mentioned that they were groups separated and they needed to resolve a mystery murder and all the people that look the same and knew each other were put in a group and then in another group, they put at least one person that didn't belong or didn't look like them. In fact, they didn't know each other. So um the group where everyone looked the same and they knew each other, they were very confident about their answer. But in the end, they got the answer wrong. While the other group, when they submitted their answer, they were not completely sure, there were also more uh arguments, but in the end, they got it right. So that's something to say about the entire process of, you know, legitimize the ISDS field. 

Lucy: That's really interesting. Rebecca and I wasn't aware of that. Um I'm gonna go and read that article now, after this podcast. Now, I just have one further question for you, which is a question that I'm asking to all my guests today. And that's who is a role model or mentor in your career that you feel best embodies the inspire inclusion message. 

Rebeca: So choosing just one role model or mentor is difficult as I've been fortunate to have several throughout my career. However, since we've been discussing male allies, I would like to mention a few gentlemen who've been particularly inspiring in promoting inclusion and diversity. One is John Fellas, now an independent arbitrator. The other is our very own Gautam Bhattacharyya. But I also want to highlight my husband, Benjamin Malek. Without him, I will not be able to do what I do every day. And so these gentlemen talk the talk and walk the walk when it comes to inclusion and diversity. I have witnessed firsthand their unyielding commitment to gender equality and building access for underrepresented groups. And I'll tell you they are phenomenal. But most importantly, I have to mention my mother. My mother, she was not, she never graduated from university, but she relentlessly believed in education and given her kids all the tools and and access to better education and to make it happen. She never told me, Rebeca because you're a woman or because you are a Latina or Hispanic, you can't do X, Y and Z she always pushed me and, and that's why, you know, when I see all these differences or, or that there is no enough access, I think about my mother and I believe that she was very advanced or very ahead of her time when she was raising me. 

Lucy: Thank you for sharing that Rebeca and you're absolutely right. Mentors can be people we work with, but they can also be people outside of work. So my next guest is also from our New York office I have with me, new joining partner Juliya Arbisman, uh who's a partner in New York and London who focuses on International Arbitration. Juliya, thank you very much for joining me today. 

Juliya: Thanks Lucy. Glad to be here. 

Lucy: So Juliay, my question for you is what barriers do you believe still exist for women in law? And how could we collectively work to dismantle them? 

Juliya: Thanks, Lucy. Look barriers mean a lot of things obviously, I think to deconstruct it a little bit if the question is, are there sort of systemic barriers to women at law? I think for the most part, we are in a much better place than we have ever been in terms of explicit issues such as discrimination and harassment, as well as less explicit issues like unconscious bias in terms of career advancement, lack of access and cultural norms in terms of seeing uh women in those roles. All that being said, I think it's hard to ignore that there is a significant level of attrition in particular by women in law as they push towards um the more advanced stages of their career and whether that is by choice or just by circumstance, in terms of how it aligns with um their particular ambitions. I think, uh you know, that that is, that is something that, you know, there has to be more study on and um more um action around at the end of the day. I think we all humbly recognize that law is a service industry, it requires a lot of reactiveness. This, this is uh something that I think women excel at uh women excel at the multitasking and, you know, and responsibility and ownership as to what they have. And sometimes that level of responsiveness, which is implicit in our profession tends to put additional strain, I think on women, especially during, you know, mothering years and childbearing years. And I think that is a systemic issue which arises, you know, as we say, it is what it is uh in terms of the support structures um that law firms and institutions develop as well as just women um feel they can bring to the table in terms of mentoring and guiding each other through those um you know, particular acute stages. I think we're in much, much better stages on all of that. So that's the point as to systemic barriers to the extent that I see them as to what can we do to break them down anything and everything. And again, I don't think this is a issue only to be answered by women, but as institutions who, you know, put a pledge and, and create sort of a thoughtful system around this particular issue to, to ensure that there's representation. But I think we as individuals also can do something uh quite modest, which is to stop being apologetic for all the aspects that feed into our personalities, whether they are personal or professional and ultimately feasible by the horns. And uh that is something I think piece by piece, we all could do more, which is just to be in a more empowered state in and of itself and then, you know, to appeal to the wider community in order to, you know, to get support and recognition around that. 

Lucy: Thank you very much Juliya. My bonus question to you then and I've asked everyone else this same question, who is a role model or mentor in your career that you feel best embodies the Inspire Inclusion message. 

Juliya: That's a very tough question I'm sure for anyone who ultimately to grow in law, one requires a great level of mentorship. I think there is a bespoke way of shaping one's career I think as the International Arbitration. We have such a steep learning curve pretty much at every stage of what we do because we're encountering new legal systems, new cultural systems. Uh you know, everything we do is inherently international. And I think looking at examples of uh women, I would say, particularly from kind of weaker rule of law countries in the way that they, you know, have managed to, you know, create not, not just their own brand, but you know, a real working ecosystem around, you know, the legal issues that impassion them. And there are more individuals than I can recall whom I have met from, you know, all quarters of the world who have really exemplified that and inspired me I think as a, as a class of individuals, you know, and have shown us that really what what we are doing is um is much, much easier than, than what they had to do. And I think, you know, we’ll collectively keep that forward. 

Lucy: And as a senior partner, is it still important to have mentors? Or would you say that you are now more focused on being a mentor to others? 

Juliya: I think it takes two to tango in terms of shaping one's career in the modern world, especially in large enterprises such as law firms. I think mentorship is a honor. It's also a duty. And I think everyone along their respective paths have a lot to offer. And I don't necessarily see this as a woman's issue. I think uh generations of lawyers have very good insight and reflection for the next generation because one, they've been through the trenches, but two, they can reflect on the speed of change and the kind of issues which are, you know, manageable and, and I think that's how we, you know, better, the practice of law and perhaps, you know, through that collective effort deconstruct some of these barriers that you were mentioning in the, in the earlier part of the call. 

Lucy: No, I absolutely agree. And it's, it's certainly not a, a mentorship is certainly not a women's issue. And I know myself and many of the other people we've had on the podcast today, you know, their mentors have been men and it's all about having different, you know, different perspectives. Thank you very much, Juliya. That's been fantastic to have you here. So, my next guest is Vanessa Thieffry, a senior associate in our Paris office who focuses on international arbitration. Hi, Vanessa, how are you? 

Vanessa: Hi, Lucy. Very well. Thank you and thank you for inviting me to speak during your podcast. 

Lucy: Oh, it's great to have you here today. So, Vanessa, my question to you is, how have you been inspired in your legal career? And how has this influenced your approach to inclusivity in the workplace? 

Vanessa: Well, Lucy, I think that my inspiration comes from the diversity of structures and teams I have been working with during my legal career, I started off in a very small boutique arbitration firm. We were only five lawyers, then I came into a bigger structure, an independent law firm that had 70 lawyers, but we were only a team of 10. And for five years now, over five years, I've been at Reed Smith with a global arbitration team, but within an office and I think that in smaller offices, you have a better feeling of belonging and having a voice within your team. That's what I felt in this first structure I was in where we were five. Of course, when you are five, you have a voice and a sense of belonging. In my second law firm, we were 70 people, 70 lawyers. But again, the team was very closely knit and we were about 10 lawyers. So again, you have a voice, you have this sense of belonging, you have this sense of wanting to further your team and in bigger structures, what I discovered, Reed Smith is that you have this organization in industry practice groups and community groups which enable you to have an identity and to be included and to further inclusivity. So I think that my inspiration comes from these organizations that all come up to two things, teamwork and adaptability and that is how you get your sense of belonging. 

Lucy: That's really interesting, Vanessa, thank you. And you know, I've spent my whole career at Reed Smith. So in some ways, I have a limited pool of experience to, to draw on in that, in that respect. So thank you for sharing that. Now, Vanessa, my bonus question that I'm asking all of my guests today who is a role model or mentor in your career that you feel best embodies the inspire inclusion message and this can be more than one person. 

Vanessa: Well, there haven't been a number because as I was saying, I think it all comes back to teamwork. My first boss was an 80 plus year old arbitrator. So of course, you feel inspired and listen to when you're a young lawyer and you are face to face with that arbitrator who can be scary and he listens to you and, and afterwards throughout my career, I have been lucky enough to have strong team managers who knew how to hear their team members. And at Reed Smith that goes um with our internal WINRS group Women's Initiative Network who does a lot to promote women and in our firm and to give them a sense of belonging. And we also have strong industry and practice groups or international arbitration group. Although it is across 32 offices is actually a very strong knit and tight network of arbitration practice lawyers who regularly get together to work together and who promote their associates also. 

Lucy: Thanks so much Vanessa. That's great. And my next guest, I have senior associate Alison Eslick, who focuses on construction arbitration in our Dubai office. Hello, Alison, thanks so much for joining me today. Now, my question for you Alison is how do you envision the evolution of the legal profession in terms of gender equality and inclusion? 

Alison: Thanks Lucy, I'm delighted to um handle that question because although we still have a long way to go. Look, I am really optimistic about DEI in the legal profession. And I think, you know, there's never been a time when DEI and ESG um have been talked about more in legal circles and the momentum really does seem to be growing. So I wanna give you an example, Lucy of some exciting changes here in the Middle East where as you know, I've been based since 2008. So most notably at the moment, all eyes are on the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. So there's enormous economic and societal changes going on in the Kingdom, especially for women. So one of the Saudi government's vision, 2030 targets is to have 30% female workforce participation by 2030. And that target was actually smashed in 2023 with participation reaching 35%. There's also legally strict enforcement of equal pay for women. And we've got several examples of Saudi power, women in top C-suite and general council roles. So for example, the General Council and Secretary General of Saudi's Public Investment Fund PIF is a woman. Her name is Shihana Alazzaz. So basically the top legal job in Saudi at the moment is filled by a woman. We've also got Sarah Al-Suhaimi who's a chairperson of the Saudi Stock Exchange. Um We've got Esraa Al-Buti who's the first female tax partner at Ernst and Young in Saudi. And look, I mean, Lucy 4 to 5 years ago, I would not have been sitting here so excited about DEI in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, but it really does seem to be happening. You've also got the SCCA which is the Saudi Centre of Commercial Arbitration. It's a signatory to the ERA pledge and they're really taking seriously their commitment to appointing female arbitrators. So, look, I think the changes in Saudi are a great example of how positive changes uh for women can and actually are happening in the legal profession, perhaps even in places where you might least expect it. 

Lucy: And my bonus question, Alison, who is a role model or mentor in your career that you feel best embodies the Inspire Inclusion message. 

Alison: OK. Look, I'm gonna stick with the theme of Saudi for the moment. And I want to say that a role model I've recently discovered is a lady called Bayan Mahmoud Al-Zahran. So she became uh one of the first female attorneys in Saudi Arabia back in 2013. She was aiming to breakdown barriers in Saudi and she launched an all female law law firm with the goal to fight uh for the rights of local Saudi women. So, I mean, she was a trailblazer and I, I think you can't get something more inspirational than that. 

Lucy: And that concludes this year's International Women's Day, Women in Arbitration podcast. We hope you've enjoyed listening. 

Outro: Arbitral Insights is a Reed Smith production. Our producer is Ali McCardell. For more information about Reed Smith's Global International Arbitration Practice. Email arbitralinsights@reedsmith.com. To learn about the Reed Smith arbitration pricing calculator, a first of its kind mobile app that forecasts the cost of arbitration around the world, search arbitration pricing calculator on reedsmith.com or download for free through the Apple and Google Play app stores. You can find our podcast on Spotify, Apple, Google Play, Stitcher, reedsmith.com and our social media accounts at Reed Smith LLP on LinkedIn, Facebook and Twitter. 

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